The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Good afternoon. We are ready to begin today's meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the first question is from Vikki Howells.

Fuel Poverty

Vikki Howells AC: 1. How is the Welsh Government prioritising interventions to eliminate fuel poverty within its draft budget for 2023-24? OQ58945

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government sees the elimination of fuel poverty as a distinct priority, particularly in the context of the ongoing fuel crisis. To reflect this, in our draft budget, we have allocated more than £190 million, over the next two financial years, to interventions aimed at reducing fuel poverty across Wales.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. Even before the recent increase in the fuel price cap, we know that nearly half of all households are at risk of fuel poverty, and I'm sure that colleagues, like me, will have experienced an increase in constituents contacting them in desperate need of advice and support. Welsh Government interventions have made a real difference in supporting communities such as Cynon Valley, but, in the face of UK Government failure to reform the broken energy market, what reassurances can you give that protecting families and children most at risk of fuel poverty will remain a priority despite wider budgetary pressures?

Rebecca Evans AC: We have a wide range of schemes available to support people who are facing fuel poverty. I mentioned, for example, the £90 million that we've allocated to run a second Welsh Government fuel support scheme in 2022-23, and that's supporting people on low incomes with non-repayable £200 payments towards their energy bills. That scheme launched on 26 September, and now it's been extended to make sure that we encompass more eligible households. We've also provided around £4 million for the Fuel Bank Foundation so that it can introduce a national fuel voucher, and also a heat fund scheme in Wales—again, this is bespoke to us here in Wales—to ensure that households that have to prepay for their fuel, including people on a prepayment meter, who are at risk of self-disconnection, and off-grid households, who have to buy bulk fuel but can't afford to top up their tank, can both benefit from this particular scheme. Since August, the Fuel Bank Foundation has brought on board 69 partners, who can now refer people to vouchers. That includes eight national partners, alongside partners in every single local authority across Wales. And we know that fuel vouchers have already benefited more than 14,000 people living in struggling households. So, it's important that people do find out what support is available to them. And I would also recommend the discretionary assistance fund, which, again, is there to support people with energy bills if they are absolutely, really struggling, and I know that all colleagues will be signposting their vulnerable constituents to that fund.

Tom Giffard AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I've looked at the Bevan Foundation's evidence to the Finance Committee. I'm struck by the point, and I quote,
'that short-term measures to ease cost-of-living pressures are not a substitute for action to reduce poverty'.
And they noted that there had been limits to investment in social housing and energy efficiency. Now, aside from the need to bring forward a new Warm Homes programme, there should be a focus on ensuring new properties are available that are energy efficient and warm. In Swansea, however, just 91 homes were completed by registered social landlords, and 18 by Swansea Council, in 2021-22. And we know already that Swansea Council is a council that's failing to meet its housing targets more generally. So, what immediate efforts are you therefore making, Minister, to close the gap in Swansea's housing, to ensure that more of my constituents are safe and warm this winter?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I'd first start off, of course, by commending the work that Swansea Council is doing in terms of building council houses. They've really invested significantly in social housing and have a really strong vision for council housing across the city and county of Swansea. So, I would certainly begin by recognising that. And, of course, if the Minister for housing was here this afternoon, answering this question about the housing portfolio, I'm sure that she would be keen to point you in the direction of the optimised retrofit programme, which is there to ensure that existing housing is able to be upgraded to meet the standards required to ensure that the residents therein are not experiencing fuel poverty, and would also point to the ongoing significant funding that we do provide to support the building of social housing here in Wales. And she'd also point, I'm sure, to the commitment that we have to have 20,000 more low-energy social homes across the term of this Senedd also. So, clearly, there's a huge amount of work going on in terms of delivering on those pledges. Those pledges have become more difficult, of course, because of the ongoing cost-of-living crisis, which impacts on contractors, it impacts on the supply chain. So, evidently, there will be some challenges in that regard also.

The Cost of Living

Jack Sargeant AC: 2. What discussions has the Minister had with local government partners on how they can support residents during the cost-of-living crisis? OQ58962

Rebecca Evans AC: I hold regular meetings with local authority leaders and discuss the impacts of the cost-of-living crisis, including in regard to the funding the Welsh Government is providing to enable authorities to continue their crucial support for residents.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank the Minister for her answer? She will be aware that, over the last two months, I've been raising the issue of the installation of prepayment meters and calling for an immediate ban on their installation. These meters mean the poorest residents in our society pay more for their energy, and, Llywydd, I have spoken to a number of charities who've given me evidence that court orders are being passed hundreds at a time. Now, this means that due diligence isn't being shown, so that the installation of prepayment meters is the suitable option for customers. This isn't happening. What is happening is extremely vulnerable residents in our society are being inappropriately switched. I was pleased, Minister, to see that Ed Miliband this week joined my calls for a ban on the installation of prepayment meters, but the crux of the point is we shouldn't be switching people in the middle of winter and during a cost-of-living crisis.Can I thank you for the support that you're offering to our local government partners, but can I ask you what more the Welsh Government can do to support local government partners when they're advising residents who have already been switched to prepayment meters?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful to Jack Sargeant for raising this this afternoon, and I do want to recognise the incredible work that Jack Sargeant is doing in terms of leading the campaign in respect of prepayment meters. Colleagues within Welsh Government are absolutely taking up that campaign on your behalf. So, the Minister for Social Justice is having a further meeting with energy suppliers on 23 January, and, again, she will be raising these concerns over reports of people, including vulnerable customers, being moved onto prepayment meters. And I know that she's made those same points in previous meetings that she's had with energy suppliers.The Minister also wrote to Grant Shapps on 23 December, outlining our concerns around prepayment meters, and we are taking opportunities, when we have them, with the UK Government again to make those cases. And officials are continuing to liaise with Ofgem to understand if customers who are moved onto prepayment meters are able to appeal the decision, because, as yet, we don't have clarity on that.
As Jack Sargeant says, this is an issue that particularly affects the most vulnerable households. It's a real concern that almost half of social housing tenants are on prepayment meters at the moment, and, obviously, that means that many of those will be paying above what other customers will be paying for their energy. So, it is quite right for us to focus our efforts in this particular space. And, obviously, I'll take opportunities in my regular discussions with local government to ensure that they're also making the right moves in this space.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, surely the best way for local government to support their residents is for them to avoid hikes in council taxes. Rising energy costs due to Putin's illegal war and rising food costs as a result of the pandemic and climate change are impacting households hard. The last thing they need are excessive tax hikes. Minister, will you urge restrainamong your local authority colleagues, and will you be prepared to cap council tax in the coming financial year?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I'd begin by saying that we absolutely don't underestimate the challenge that our colleagues in local government are facing from the inflationary pressures that they're experiencing at the moment. Because, of course, just as the Welsh Government's budget has been eroded in value, so too has local government's budget been eroded in value. But, nonetheless, we've really focused our efforts within our budget for the next financial year on public services, which is why, next year, we'll be providing unhypothecated revenue funding of over £5.5 billion, and over £1 billion of specific grants to support local authorities in their statutory and non-statutory services.That means that core funding for local government for 2023-24 has increased by 7.9 per cent, or £403 million, on a like-for-like basis compared to this financial year. So, we're doing absolutely everything that we can to put local authorities in the best possible position, but, of course, we know that the additional funding that we're able to provide doesn't meet that gap caused largely by inflation, and, as a result, local authorities will be needing to make some difficult decisions.
Now, it is the case, of course, that local authorities set their own council tax levels. I know that many are consulting at the moment. The Welsh Government, as you say, does have the power to cap those, but I don't think that we're at the point yet at which we could make a decision on that, and it's certainly something that we wouldn't do lightly; it's something that we would do only in cases where those rises were palpably excessive. So, just to set out, we really do think it's for local authorities to be setting their council tax levels; it's an important part of local democracy.

Alun Davies AC: We know the economic issues we're facing were made in Downing Street—[Interruption.]—and the incompetence of economic management in London, together with Brexit, has led to one of the biggest cost-of-living crises that many of us have ever seen. Now, this makes the Conservative Party laugh, of course, because when people are hungry, when people are cold, they really don't give a damn what's happening to those people, but, on this side of the Chamber, of course, we do. And what I would like you to do, Minister, is to use your power as a catalyst to bring people together. The two crises facing people in Wales of hunger and of heating are crises, as I said, that are not being resolved by the United Kingdom Government, and what we need to do is to step into this vacuum to bring people together, so that we can share best practice and share resources to address the real crisis facing some of the most vulnerable people in Blaenau Gwent, in Gower and across the whole country.

Rebecca Evans AC: I would absolutely agree that one of the most important things the Welsh Government can do is to bring together parties with responsibilities for serving our citizens to ensure that our efforts are combined and that we're all focused on those things that matter most to people, and that's one of the reasons why, over the course of the autumn, we did have fortnightly meetings with our colleagues in local government. One of the standing items on those fortnightly meetings was the cost-of-living crisis, alongside another standing item, which was Ukraine. We've moved those meetings now to monthly, because the situation, at the start, did require us to come up with some new interventions, but those new interventions are now in place. But, of course, it's also a standing item now on the partnership council for Wales, which will be next meeting on 2 March, and, of course, that's a much wider public services forum, to ensure that all public and voluntary sector bodies are working in the same direction, all putting their shoulders to the wheel to support our citizens through the cost-of-living crisis. And, then, I'd also mention the cost-of-living Cabinet sub-committee that the First Minister has set up. Now, to every other meeting of that committee we invite partners from outside of the Cabinet. So, we've had the Federation of Small Businesses, for example, and the Confederation of Business Industry joining us, and we've had representatives from the voluntary sector, to ensure that all of our efforts are there together in terms of supporting our residents through the cost-of-living crisis.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative Party spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Before I go into my question, I'm sure, Llywydd, you'd like to join me in welcoming members of the Canadian Parliament who've joined us today through the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, and have the pleasure of observing our proceedings this afternoon. I'm sure they'll enjoy it as much as we do.
Good afternoon, Minister. You touched, in response to one of your questions earlier, on the provisional local government settlement, and, indeed, the 7.9 per cent increase to local authorities has been broadly welcomed by those authorities, but there are concerns a number of leaders have expressed. The Labour leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, Andrew Morgan, who, I'm sure, you know well, has said there are some tough decisions ahead for councils. The Plaid Cymru leader of Isle of Anglesey County Council, Llinos Medi, says hard cuts to local services are ahead, as a result of this settlement. Lib Dem-run Powys County Council are looking to close rural schools, and Labour-run Monmouthshire County Council consulted on cuts to leisure centre hours as well. All of this whilst our council tax payers are likely to face a further hike in their taxes. So, in light of this, Minister, like the comments from those council leaders, and as a result of your funding decisions, what further difficult decisions do you think our local councils will have to make? And what services do you think our residents will have to face being cut?

Rebecca Evans AC: I think it is important to recognise that, overall, our settlement for local government, at a 7.9 per cent increase on this financial year, has been broadly welcomed across local government. I do think that we have provided the absolute best possible settlement that we could have. We gave to local government in excess of the funding that we received in consequential funding from measures that the UK Government had outlined in its autumn statement in the fields of social care and education. We were able to do that by undertaking a very painful exercise ourselves across Government in terms of identifying areas where we could reprioritise funding towards local government and towards our health service. You'll see all of those details, of course, in the draft budget that was laid. So, I don't underestimate that local government will have to make a series of difficult decisions locally. Those decisions now should be locally led; I know that they'll be consulting with their residents as to what their residents' priorities are. But, under the circumstances, we have provided the best possible settlement. It is, of course, for the Welsh Conservatives to provide their alternative budget, which I know we were promised last year, but have yet to see materialise.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for your response then. A key issue in regard to that funding for those local authorities is the way in which that funding is dished out. As you'll know, a significant part of funding for those councils comes in the form of grants. I believe around £1.4 billion of the funding that those councils receive comes in grants. Of course, the money itself is welcome, but perhaps the direction from Welsh Government as to where and when those grants should be spent can be both restrictive and cause an administrative burden, which holds back the work of our councils. So, in light of this, Minister, how are you working with those councils to ensure there can be further flexibility on grant allocation? How are you working to see that grants go into an unhypothecated section of their funding so they can spend that money on what is best for them and best for their local residents?

Rebecca Evans AC: I think this is an area probably where we have more common ground, because this is a piece of work that we have been undertaking with local authorities over the past few months, at their request, to explore which areas of grant funding could potentially be moved into the revenue support grant on a short-term or permanent basis. So, that piece of work is ongoing at the moment, but we've absolutely committed to looking at that. Timescales, of course, will be important for that piece of work. But, I just want to reassure you and other colleagues who have an interest in this that our Welsh Government officials are working with officers in the WLGA and talking to treasurers across Wales to explore what might be possible.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister. If I may, I just want to focus my last question on virtual council meetings. It's an issue that I've raised a number of times here in the Chamber and an issue that I raised with you last week as well. Also, we saw yesterday another media story showing a shambolic situation where it looks as though an alleged sex act took place over a Zoom meeting during a meeting of Flintshire council's cabinet—completely inappropriate, but again highlights some of the issues that we see in meetings of local government taking place virtually. Whilst virtual meetings, of course, do have positives, I raised with you last week my concerns about how these are being managed. I raised with you the concerns about a councillor allegedly driving whilst voting, we've seen evidence of proceedings being edited before they're published online, and now the latest news reports of this awful act that took place up in Flintishire council. It shows how virtual meetings can be abused in a way that can't happen in face to face, in-person meetings. So, last week, when we met, Minister, you said that you'd be looking to issue further guidance to councils. I wonder whether you would look to accelerate the issuing of that guidance and have those discussions with councils to ensure they're offering hybrid meetings and not just virtual meetings, because face-to-face meetings are so important for our residents and in the working of councils.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising that point this afternoon. I'd begin by recognising that hybrid working and virtual working can be a really important way in which to increase diversity in democracy, as we were discussing last week, in terms of making those meetings more accessible to people in full-time work, people with family commitments, caring commitments, people who are self-employed, and for others. But, absolutely, we would expect that the same behaviour is expected of people attending those meetings as you would expect in a council chamber. So, I will explore with the local government chief digital officer what more we can be doing in this space to ensure that everybody is clear about what's expected of them in those meetings, and perhaps we can have a further conversation about some more of your ideas in this space outside the Chamber.

Before I call the spokesperson for Plaid Cymru, can I reiterate the welcome to the parliamentarians from Canada to our Senedd, our Parliament, today? And I hope you have a fruitful visit to Wales and to our Parliament, and thank you for bringing just a tiny little bit of your winter weather to us as well.

So, a very warm welcome to all of you. Plaid Cymru spokesperson next, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. And it was very good to share an hour of our time as well to compare notes in relation to the work that we do as the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee as well.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: So, thank you for that.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Minister, we've heard about concerns about contracting public services, particularly in relation to local government, as a result of the financial situation that our councils find themselves in. Now, one graphic demonstration of that of course was the fact that Newport are actually considering switching off alternate street lights between midnight and 6 a.m. to cut down on energy costs. Colleagues of mine on these benches have already raised concerns about the impact that might have and the consequences particularly in terms of compromising the safety of night-time pedestrians, especially women and those who maybe aren't confident and stable on their feet maybe—older people et cetera—and potential consequences in terms then of deteriorating health, mental and physical. There is a strong correlation of course between improved street lighting and reduced crime rates as well. So, one simple decision—I say 'simple' in a qualified manner, but one decision—can obviously have much wider implications and impacts.
So, my question to you is: what advice are you giving to local councils, or what discussions are you having with local authorities? Because, obviously, at the end of the day, these isolated decisions—. And you could scale these decisions up if they're collective decisions—collective impacts of similar decisions made elsewhere. But what advice are you giving to local councils about the risk that some of these decisions, made today to save money, may well cost the public purse more money in the longer term?

Rebecca Evans AC: I think the example that you give really serves to highlight the difficult decisions that local authorities are considering at the moment, and they span a really wide range of matters that are of importance to their residents. So, decisions must be taken, of course, through the lens of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, so, they'll be needing to consider what the decisions that they're taking mean in terms of sustainable communities. And of course, the equality impact assessments will be important as well in terms of understanding the impact on people with particular protected characteristics: on women, older people, which you've given as examples.
So, I know that councils will be diligent in that work, but I know that councils will have to make some decisions that are difficult, because they do speak to me about the gaps that still remain in the funding that they have for next year. And I know that they're setting out some of those proposals in their consultations with local residents. So, clearly, they will have to listen very carefully to what local residents are telling them are their priorities for their communities as they move forward. But, as I say, we've provided local authorities with the best possible settlement. I think that you probably would have to go a long way to find a local government leader who'd rather be in England than in Wales and you'd probably find a fair few in England who would also prefer to be here as well. That's because, over those long years of austerity, we still protected local government as far as we possibly could. So, that remains the case, that we're protecting them in the next financial year as far as we can. And I described earlier in this session the difficult work that we did to repurpose money towards local government and health from other areas of Government.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, my concern is Wales of course; I have no jurisdiction for England. But certainly I think we need to be mindful that these individual decisions will consequently lead to, maybe, pressures coming from other directions.
Now, linked to this, really, the Welsh Government is introducing legislation and regulation, much of which we support, and they are very worthy in terms of what we want to achieve and are well intentioned, but much of this is introducing additional duties and responsibilities to local government. We've seen it happen with organisations such as Natural Resources Wales, where, a few years ago, the Planning (Wales) Act 2015, the future generations Act, the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, all stacked up additional duties on that particular organisation at the same time of course as reducing budgets, to put it on quite an unsustainable trajectory in terms of delivering on those services. I'd ask you how mindful you are of those pressures in terms of local government. I've touched on this with you before: what consideration has the Government given to re-profiling the introduction of some of these duties? The 20 mph zones are obviously bringing with them a hefty burden of work that needs to be completed. Is that something that the Government would be open-minded to maybe delaying or looking at re-profiling in terms of its expectation around local government to introduce that? Even the single-use plastic ban—there will be an enforcement responsibility on local government. Now, we would all want to see that coming into being as soon as possible, but I think we do need a pragmatism and a practical approach to some of this. So, my question is: to what extent are you actively looking at this agenda, and to what extent are you actually discussing this with local government? And if you are, maybe you could give us a few examples of some things that you are actively considering in that respect.

Rebecca Evans AC: So, just to return briefly to the first part of your question, I would just like to say that this is one of the reasons why the strategic impact assessments are so important, because they do look at the cumulative impact upon people of various decisions and, of course, upon people who have more than one protected characteristic as well. So, those types of impact assessments are really helpful in terms of helping us understand the impact of decisions.
But, then, in terms of local government, the things that they asked us to look at, and we were pleased to do so, included the point about moving grants into the revenue support grant, either for a time-limited period or permanently. So, that's something that we are actively looking at at the moment. We're looking at all of our different grants and exploring what might be possible. That's an ongoing discussion, as I said, with the WLGA and with treasurers across Wales.
Another thing that they asked us to look at was the impact of regulatory burdens. So, obviously, this is a programme for government commitment, that we would look at the administrative burdens on local authorities, and that's a piece of work that, again, is actively under way with local authorities. But I think some of them had a particular concern about some of the regulatory systems, so we are looking at some of those specific concerns that they had as well, because we are really open to having all of these discussions with local authorities to try and ensure that we treat them with trust to get on with the jobs that they are required to do.
And then, on the point about re-profiling or looking again at some of our commitments, again, this is something that we are exploring with local government. I think that there are different views on some of these things. For example, the 20 mph zones, clearly, that's a programme for government commitment. I know there are strong views out there about that particular commitment. But we are engaging openly in all of these discussions with local government.

Promoting Public Health

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 3. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding funding local authorities to promote public health? OQ58963

Rebecca Evans AC: The resource for core public health promotion sits with local health boards. Local authorities have responsibility for other areas of public health, such as health protection and environmental public health. Local authorities work closely with partners, including local health boards, on some areas of health promotion, such as the national exercise referral scheme.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Yes, thank you very much for that response. Of course, the Minister for health pointed her finger a little at the public with regard to the public's responsibility to be more careful of their health and to do more to exercise and to eat more healthily and so on. I felt that pointing the finger at the public with regard to the NHS's difficulties was rather harsh, but I understand the point she was making. But, of course, the Government itself isn't helping in this regard, because we've talked about the cuts that local authorities are facing, of course—leisure centres are closing, public health programmes are being cut. So, do you agree with me that there is a contradiction—a major contradiction—here where, on the one hand, the Government is saying, 'Well, do more to live more healthily', and on the other hand there is a lack of funding from the Government that means that the leisure centres and the public health programmes and the support available to help people to live more healthily are being cut?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, first of all, I would just reassure you that we are acutely aware of and equally concerned about the pressures that the current energy crisis and the cost-of-living crisis are having on the sport and leisure sector. Of course, the provisional local government settlement means that some local authorities have now reversed their plans to close some of their facilities, which I think is really important, demonstrating that they're prioritising those facilities with the additional funding that we've been able to provide. I know, for example, that there are areas such as swimming pools, where authorities and their swimming pool operators are concerned because they haven't been offered protection under the UK Government's new energy bills discount scheme, so we're supporting those efforts for those kinds of facilities to be categorised as intensive energy users. It's also worth recognising as well that as part of their capital funding investments, Sport Wales is looking into ways in which they can support the sector regarding green energy, and they've made links with the Welsh Government's energy service to discuss the practicalities there. So, there is obviously a financial outlook that is very challenging at the moment, but I know that authorities are trying to prioritise these non-statutory services and we've got several questions on those this afternoon as well, as part of their response to the cost-of-living crisis, and to support people.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Given that the over-65 population is likely to significantly increase over the next five years, it is essential that our local authorities receive adequate funding to support our older population, and we know that our social care in Wales is in a mess. We've heard the concerns about the hypothecation and how money is afforded to local authorities. We've heard our colleague Llyr Gruffydd outline the responsibilities that have fallen on local authorities as a result of some bad legislation going from here, and then being picked up by local authorities.
The World Health Organization describes age-friendly communities as being places in which older people, communities, policies, services, settings and structures work together in partnership to support and enable us all to age well. In April 2022, the Welsh Government announced that £1.1 million was being made available to local authorities to support their work to become age friendly, and to ensure older people are involved in the design and planning of local services. This is something I've worked on with the Older People's Commissioner for Wales, and she has emphasised the need for such investment to continue. Minister, what progress has the £1.1 million investment achieved during the current financial year, and is it your intention, and indeed that of the Deputy Minister for Social Services, to continue to invest in creating age-friendly communities in 2023-24? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm grateful for that question and I've also had a really good meeting with the older people's commissioner, who talked very passionately about the potential for age-friendly communities. I can confirm that, for 2023-24, the Welsh Government via the social care reform fund will provide a grant of £50,000 to each local authority, so that they are able to appoint a lead officer to support their working towards becoming part of the WHO network of age-friendly communities and cities. I know that the Deputy Minister would be more than happy to provide more detailed information about the activities that are taking place on a local basis.

Climate Change

Peter Fox AS: 4. How is the Minister working with the Minister for Climate Change to ensure that local authorities have the funding required to meet their climate change commitments? OQ58967

Rebecca Evans AC: Climate change is a cross-government priority and I work closely with the Minister for Climate Change and with my other Cabinet colleagues to support delivery of Net Zero Wales, and to support local authorities in delivering their commitments.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for that answer and we've had many discussions in this Chamber about making sure there's enough capital to decarbonise, for local government to decarbonise and invest in their green projects. But it's not all about money, either. There is also a need to make sure that there is sufficient human capital with the right skills and knowledge that they need to fulfil those roles, and I know that the Welsh Local Government Association, in their evidence on the Government's draft budget, have shared their concerns about the shortage of staff with green skills, as well as the difficulties experienced by public bodies in retaining staff with the required skills due to wage differentials with the private sector.
I'm just wondering, Minister, what discussions you've had with local government colleagues about developing and funding a recruitment, retention and upskilling strategy, so that staff have the required knowledge and skills in green issues. And what consideration have you given to, perhaps, enhancing the role of corporate joint committees, so that pooled budgets and pooled efforts can achieve some of these commitments?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful for that question this afternoon, and I'm really pleased with the work that the decarbonisation panel for Wales is undertaking in terms of ensuring that all local authorities have plans in place in order to help move them towards that goal of net zero in the public sector by 2030.
I think one of the areas where we need to put a great deal of focus, of course, is on procurement, because over 60 per cent of councils' emissions arise through the procurement of goods and services. I mention that because that's one of the areas where the Welsh Government is investing in skills for that particular sector. So, we've been investing in the professional qualifications, and supporting people to achieve those professional qualifications within the public sector, so that they have that skills base and the knowledge that they need, but particularly so with a focus now on decarbonisation. Just yesterday, I had the opportunity to meet the individuals through Curshaw who were driving forward our alpha phase on the centre for excellence for procurement. That was a really interesting meeting, talking to them about what they'd heard from talking to procurement professionals within the public sector, and also, particularly, in local government. I think skills and recognition are part of that, a concern that there must be that continuous opportunity to develop those skills within the very modern context and within the context of that journey towards net zero by 2030. So, that is a field of work where there's a lot of work going on at the moment, but particularly with that eye on procurement.

Alun Davies AC: Of course, the best way to achieve this, as we all know, on every side of the Chamber, would be to go back to the old eight counties where you've got local government with sufficient capacity and clout to be able to deliver those schemes. You know that, they all know that, but there we go. I won't go after it this afternoon, everybody will be pleased to hear. But what I would like to—[Interruption.]
What I would like to challenge the Minister on is this: local government can act as a catalyst within its particular area to enable far more community-based renewable energy schemes. We do see that in some places, but we don't see anything like the number and the quantity that we require in order to deliver on our net-zero ambitions, but also to address some of the social issues that we debated in an earlier question. So, what can the Welsh Government do, Minister, to bring local government together to ensure that local government has the tools—the financial tools as well as the expertise that Peter Fox described—in order to provide local communities with the means to deliver renewable schemes that will address all the issues that we've been debating earlier?

Rebecca Evans AC: I agree that local authorities have an important role and an important potential in that particular space, which is why I know that the Minister for Climate Change is engaging with them in respect of the development of the Unnos work, and I hope that she'll be making more information available to colleagues on the development of that work before too long. So, perhaps that would be an opportunity to explore that in greater detail.
I won't be tempted to bite either on the point that you made about the formulations of local government, and I realise that I neglected also to respond to the finance spokesperson's point on CJCs, but there'll be other opportunities.

Non-statutory Public Services

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 5. What discussions has the Minister had with local authorities about the expectation for them to maintain non-statutory public services following the 2022-23 budget? OQ58968

Rebecca Evans AC: I meet regularly with all local authority leaders to discuss key issues that affect us all, including the current financial challenges. It's the responsibility of each local authority to determine how they deliver their non-statutory services, based on local priorities.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much for that response, and you're placing the responsibility on local authorities, of course, but you're the one making the cuts. What advice do you therefore have for local authorities who are now having to decide between closing day centres for the elderly, cutting economic development programmes, closing leisure centres and libraries, reducing public transport, doing less to deal with the climate emergency, not spending on the promotion of the Welsh language and all sorts of other crucial things that local authorities do on behalf of the people of Wales? How are councils supposed to choose between these unacceptable cuts, and what advice does the Minister have for the people of Wales who will not be in receipt of these crucial services from here on in?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'll make the point again that the Welsh Government has provided the absolute best possible settlement to local government, and I know that was recognised by local government leaders and members of local government across Wales. As I've mentioned, we're providing revenue funding of over £5.1 billion and over £1 billion of specific grants to local authorities next year, and that's a rise of 7.9 per cent. Now, that's a significant rise in the context that we're facing, with our own budget reducing in its value over the course of this Senedd term, and as I've mentioned previously this afternoon, we allocated local government in excess of the funding that we received in consequential funding from the UK Government as a result of the autumn statement, and that has come at a cost to colleagues, who have had to divert funding away from treasured programmes in their own portfolios. So, I would say that we've done the absolute best that we could for local government. We're scrutinising the budget at the moment. What I'm not hearing from colleagues on other benches are examples of areas where they would have funding diverted away from in order to provide additional funding to local government or to other priorities that they might have. But I look forward to those ideas coming forward.

Preventive Health Measures

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 6. What discussions has the Minister had with other Ministers regarding the funding of preventive health measures across the Government? OQ58961

Rebecca Evans AC: Building on our previous budget, the 2023-24 draft budget continues to focus on preventing harm to the most disadvantaged. Alongside the £165 million to protect our NHS, actions include protecting the £90 million funding for free school meals, investing a further £10 million in homelessness prevention and providing £2.2 million for our basic income pilot.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much for that response, but it's the same old sermon from me, I'm afraid. We need to do much, much more on the preventative agenda if we are to make Wales a healthier nation, and right across Government. In Anglesey there are genuine concerns about the future of the national exercise referral scheme, or NERS, because of a lack of investment. Now, the £145,530 that the council has received this year for NERS is the same amount that's been received since 2015. The county council has written to the health Minister on this. They have a waiting list of people, but a lack of resources, and we have to do more of this kind of thing if we are genuinely going to focus on preventative measures.
I've also been speaking to the Nifty Sixties in Holyhead, a body that is trying to extend its work across the island to offer better health to older people. They need to be able to have people referred to them. Will the Minister commit to discussing with the Minister for health how to increase the sum that I mentioned? Because unless this relatively small, short-term investment is made, then the pressure will increase in the long term on the entire budget.

Rebecca Evans AC: I will commit to reflecting the concerns that you raised this afternoon to the Minister for Health and Social Services. Obviously, this is a matter for her to decide within the confines of the MEG that she has, but I will be more than happy to make her aware of the contribution this afternoon.

School Catering

Jenny Rathbone AC: 7. What financial assessment has the Minister made of local authorities' approach to investing in school catering? OQ58952

Rebecca Evans AC: Two hundred and sixty million pounds has been committed to implement the universal free school meal provision programme over the next three years. I anticipate that this funding will be sufficient for the majority of local authorities, but have committed that any additional requirements will be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much for that reply, which is extremely useful to clarify that. I just wondered if I could probe you on what financial assessment you may have done on the different models that local authorities are using, as the rise in food prices is far higher than the 1.65 uplift local authority budgets are getting in total, and there's also a world shortage of chefs, not just in schools, but in restaurants and cafes across the UK.
There seem to be three main models of delivery. Ynys Môn, maybe among others, have outsourced their catering provision to private contractors. Most local authorities rely on in-house caterers and cooking our expanding primary school meal service in school kitchens, which often involves capital to refurbish kitchens that are no longer fit for purpose for our expanding meal service. The third model, in Flintshire, is exploring advanced discussions with a social enterprise about a third option, of cooking the main meal centrally, sometimes known as cook-chill, with final preparation of food that doesn't need to be cooked, like fruit and salad, done in individual schools, prepared by the kitchen assistants who are going to dish out the meals anyway. How much of this presupposes the individual kitchen model, and how much of it is looking at the cost of having meals prepared centrally, at least while we have such a crisis in the provision of chefs?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for that question. I can say that Welsh Treasury officials are part of the working group that has been established to take forward the review of the unit rate. Obviously, it's not straightforward, and they will be looking at the impacts of those different models in terms of agreeing the rate. At the moment, the current free school meal unit rate across local authorities is being looked at alongside the evidence of the rising costs and the expectation that we're putting on local authorities in respect of sourcing local ingredients. Obviously, they're exploring the sustainability of the offer. I'm sure that part of that work will include exploring the different models of delivery, looking to see which delivers best value for money, and looking to see which delivers on those wider socioeconomic and environmental goals that we have. Perhaps I'll ask the education Minister to provide a letter to the Member with more detail on that.

And finally, question 8—Heledd Fychan.

Non-statutory Services

Heledd Fychan AS: 8. What discussions is the Minister having with councils in South Wales Central regarding the future of non-statutory services in light of the financial challenges that they are facing? OQ58953

Rebecca Evans AC: I meet regularly with all local authorities to discuss key issues that affect us all, including the current financial challenges. It is the responsibility of each local authority to determine how they deliver their non-statutory services based on local priorities.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. I understand that it is a matter for them to prioritise, but as we've heard from a number of Members, there is concern about that non-statutory. We are seeing budget consultations currently in my region where you have questions around, 'Do you want a museum or a library, or do you want social care?' Of course people are going to choose those services, but it also discredits the important and valuable role of both libraries and museums. We're seeing the Museum of Cardiff, formerly known as Cardiff Story Museum, under threat. We are thinking also about the economic benefit of such institutions. So, please can I ask—? I know it's a matter for local authorities, but surely it's a matter of national concern if we want to deliver on the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, if we want to go and ensure that people have the benefits from culture and sport, which we know in terms of health and well-being are so, so valuable in order to protect our NHS. What is the role of Government other than saying it is a matter for local authorities? Surely there is a role in terms of non-statutory as well if we are to deliver on the future generations Act.

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government's culture division does support the delivery of local cultural services, including museums, which are non-statutory services, as you say. Funding is available to enable museums to meet and maintain the museum accreditation, including providing access to the annual capital transformation grant scheme. The culture division also provides a programme of training and workforce development for museum, archive and library staff, and also supports services with advice and funding to enable them to engage with and deliver on our priorities, such as the anti-racist Wales action plan. So, there are other sources of funding available through the culture department.
Of course, local authorities do have a responsibility to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service that is open to all, and that is set in legislation under the provisions of the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964. Obviously, local authorities will be mindful of that when setting their budget. Of course, we monitor the provision of local library services through the Welsh public library standards, and we support the development of library provision through initiatives such as our national digital library service.
I can also say that the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport and Chief Whip has discussed the specific examples with local authorities where there have been proposals relating to cultural offers in the budget consultations, and officials have also liaised with staff in those institutions to provide relevant advice. I know that the Deputy Minister is taking an active interest in proposals that fall within her portfolio.

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

The next item is questions to the Minister for rural affairs and north Wales, and the first question is from Altaf Hussain.

Pollinators

Altaf Hussain AS: 1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to make Wales pollinator friendly? OQ58955

Lesley Griffiths AC: Our nature network programme is funding projects that will support pollinators, including the Wildlife Trust of South and West Wales healthy and resilient grasslands project, which aims to create a network of high-quality grasslands across 11 protected sites. This builds on our action plan for pollinators and the Bee Friendly scheme.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. Without bees and other pollinators, we would starve. And if we are to avoid the fate of farmers in the US, who have to rely upon bees being transported by lorries over large distances, we have to ensure bee-friendly corridors across all of Wales. Next week I'll be planting a blossom tree as part of the National Trust's blossom project. Minister, will you encourage farmers to plant blossom trees, and will you urge gardeners across the nation to plant blossom trees and wildflowers to provide corridors for our vital pollinators? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You're quite right; bee health is absolutely essential for our existence. It's very good to hear about the action that you're taking. As you know, the Welsh Government is giving a free tree to everyone right across Wales, so that's one way we're encouraging people to plant more trees. Certainly, we've worked with local authorities about planting wildflowers on verges and roundabouts; I've seen some very good examples up in north Wales in relation to that. But I think if we can all do just a little bit, that will help in the future.

Disease in Livestock

Cefin Campbell MS: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on efforts to combat the spread of disease in livestock in Mid and West Wales? OQ58965

Cefin Campbell MS: Will the Minister provide an update on efforts to combat the spread of disease in livestock in Mid and West Wales?

Before the Minister responds, you don't need to translate 'da byw'. We are all aware of its meaning. Stick to the question as it has been presented, please. The Minister to respond.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Control of endemic and exotic diseases in livestock in Wales is central to our animal health and welfare framework for 2014 to 2024. We have robust surveillance, control strategies and ongoing animal disease eradication programmes and projects in place to control and prevent their spread, in collaboration with keepers and vets. Biosecurity, of course, is of the utmost importance.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much. As we all know, sheep scab is a great concern for sheep farmers in Wales, and the disease has a very significant impact on the health and well-being of livestock. Across the UK, it contributes to losses of around £8 million in the sector per annum. As you've already explained, the Government is committed to eradicating sheep scab in Wales, and I particularly welcome the proposals drawn up with Coleg Sir Gâr to deal with this disease.
However, like many farmers across Wales, I was shocked by the proposed fees that have been noted as part of the recent consultation with Natural Resources Wales. The sum for dealing with sheep dip is to increase tenfold to a total of some £3,700. Apparently, very little explanation has been given as to why this is happening. So, does the Minister share my concern, and the sector's concern, that introducing these kinds of unreasonably high fees during a cost-of-living crisis could have far-reaching impacts on the Government's attempts to eradicate sheep scab in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As you pointed out, sheep scab is a disease that we've had a particular focus on. We've provided, for the last couple of years, free year-round sheep scab skin-scrape testing through our Carmarthen veterinary investigation centre for our Welsh flocks, and we've just brought forward a three-year contract worth £4.5 million for the all-Wales sheep scab eradication programme.
You mention the ongoing Natural Resources Wales consultation regarding their regulatory fees and charges for the next financial year. What that review intends is to ensure that NRW do achieve full cost recovery, with some of the current charges not having been reviewed for a number of years. But I appreciate what you're saying, and it is a particularly challenging time for everyone, and of course for our farmers too. NRW do expect the increased cost of licences to impact on a very small number of farms in Wales, because obviously spent sheep dip needs to be disposed of in a particularly environmentally friendly way because of the chemicals it contains. There is a push for—you know yourself—the mobile units that go around farms as well. However, I think with some of the figures that we've seen, I can quite understand why that has brought forward some fears with our farmers. I am due to meet the Minister for Climate Change, who obviously has responsibility for NRW, to discuss this. I have been told that NRW have been talking to stakeholders—and that, of course, includes our farmers—around this. I was asked was it for NRW to make a profit. Well, it isn't; it's about that full cost recovery. But it is really important that we do go ahead with our sheep scab eradication project, and I wouldn't want anything to divert attention from that.

James Evans MS: Minister, I share the concerns of my colleague Cefin Campbell around this, and obviously the rising costs for the disposal of sheep dip. I do recognise your comments about sheep dip being disposed of in a safe and environmentally friendly way. Your sheep scab eradication policy includes sheep dipping as a way of eradicating sheep scab. It has proven to be the best way of getting rid of the disease. Have you had conversations with the chief vet around these increasing charges around any potential impact this is going to have on the Welsh Government's sheep scab eradication strategy?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Yes, I've had conversations. You'll be aware that we've got an interim chief veterinary officer at the moment, and I've had several conversations with him around this. He's obviously had conversations, and the fact that, as I mentioned, NRW do expect the increased costs to impact on a relatively small number of farms has come out of those discussions. It is right that it's only one of the ways, as you say, to dispose of spent sheep dip, but if it is the way that's most effective, then you would hope that that would be the one that farmers would use, because it is highly toxic to our aquatic plants, for instance, and animals, and it's really important that it is disposed of in a correct way. So, as I say, I will be meeting with the Minister for Climate Change, because NRW will obviously put their proposals to her at the end of the consultation.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions from party spokespeople now. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, in September 2021, you announced that the basic payment scheme and Glastir funding for advanced, common and organic would continue until December of this year, 2023. Rightly, you've always stressed that Welsh farmers won't face a funding cliff edge ahead of the new sustainable farming scheme in 2025. The Welsh Government currently has over 5,500 Glastir-based area contracts, most of which have been involved in this subsidy arrangement for a number of years, with their business models reflecting that involvement. So, given that you've already extended the Glastir programme once, what consideration have you given to extending it once more so that farmers have certainty ahead of the SFS transition in 2025?

Lesley Griffiths AC: That is something that we're looking at over the next couple of months, because, as you say, I have announced that it's extended until December 2023, and then we'll obviously have 2024, and I do hope then that we'll be able to transition to the sustainable farming scheme in 2025.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you. I know that the farmers in Wales who are signed up to the Glastir scheme will welcome that call.
During lockdown, we saw the rise of the farmer influencer on social media platforms. With a new ITV Wales series, Born to Farm, and the presence of TikTok star Farmer Will—I'm sure you all know him—in the Love Island villa, farming and farmers are being seen in a new and more positive light, attracting a new audience and maybe even new entrants into the industry. If farming in Wales is to survive, it will always need these new entrants, and one of the best routes into farming is through the young farmers club. I know that first-hand as a former member. There's a few former members in this very Chamber. Wales YFC now only receives Government funding via the Welsh language grant, having missed out on funding from the Welsh Government's national voluntary youth organisations grant. Given the role that the young farmers movement plays in educating young people about the agricultural industry and the environment, not to mention the host of other skills learnt, will the Minister look at other ways her department can support financially Wales YFC, so that the charity can continue its good work in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I'd be very happy to. I think the young farmers is a very, very impressive organisation. It's very clear from just looking around this Chamber that the skills it teaches its members are transferable life skills, if you like. So, I'll be certainly very happy to look at it, but that comes with a health warning, because there is very little spare money around. But I'll be certainly very happy to look at any requests that should come forward.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Excellent. I'll pass that information on to the new chief executive of Wales YFC, who starts very shortly.
But if we are to bring new entrants into the industry, Minister, then we must ensure that safety and welfare is enshrined within the sector's work. Statistics from the Health and Safety Executive show that agriculture, with forestry and fishing, has the highest rate of self-reported non-fatal workplace injuries, with 92 per cent of farmers under the age of 40 suggesting that poor mental health is the biggest hidden problem facing farmers today. Sadly, it's not just injuries that occur; the community of Carreglefn in Ynys Môn was rocked following the death of 26-year-old Macauley Owen following an on-farm incident in January this year. How is the Welsh Government working with not just the stakeholders but with the farmers on the ground, feeding the nation, to improve the health and safety within this industry?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think, unfortunately, we've seen too many farmers' deaths over the past few months. And it's not just about mental health and well-being, it's about safety on the farm as well. And I was very pleased to launch a specific leaflet aimed at schools at the Royal Welsh Agricultural Show, back in November. But in relation specifically to your question around mental health and well-being, improving mental health and well-being, right across Government, is a priority for us—for me, for our farmers, it absolutely is. Because I know that they face a great deal of uncertainty, which can only add to the issues around mental health, wellness, and obviously well-being as well. You'll be aware that we support several important activities to aid mental health in our rural communities. We've got the farming support group. I meet with the farming charities on a regular basis, and, every time I meet them, the number of people who've contacted them increases.
Certainly, we saw a real peak during COVID, and, unfortunately, it hasn't gone down over the past year or so. I think the work of the farming charities is more important than ever in these very uncertain times—it really is vital. And I think it's good that you've raised this in the Chamber, because it's really vital that people know where to go for help. You'll be aware of FarmWell Wales, which is available to farmers throughout Wales. That information hub is there for business questions, and also for their own personal questions as well, to see what resilience can be built up, both in their business and their own well-being as well. And I think, to date, we've sent out a hard copy directory of FarmWell Wales to about 16,500—so, probably the majority—of farm businesses in Wales. And it does really provide the most up-to-date information for our farmers.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you, Llywydd. The Government has ambitious tree planting targets, which are reflected in the proposed Agriculture Bill. The Deputy Minister for environment has been vocal in talking about the possible economic benefits of tree planting for farms and communities in Wales. But the work of planting trees on farms has been ongoing for years, through the Glastir woodland creation scheme. So, what social and economic benefit does the Minister believe that the Glastir woodland scheme has given to farms and communities in Wales over the years?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I believe that it's brought forward a great deal of benefits. Sam Kurtz asked in his first question around Glastir contracts and our plans for that, so I was very pleased to be able to announce that extension. I've just actually met with National Farmers Union Cymru this morning to discuss that. I know how much our farmers do involve themselves in Glastir—some of them have had Glastir scheme contracts since they first started, for many, many years. So, I think it is really important that we continue to do that. I work very closely with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change around tree planting, and you'll be aware of the tree-planting targets we have as a Government.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister for that response. So, according to the Minister, there have been great benefits for communities in Wales, and you want to continue with this. How, therefore, does the Minister explain that almost half of the successful applications under the woodland creation scheme in window No. 10 had gone to applicants with addresses outwith Wales? According to an answer to a written question recently, of the 385 hectares of land accepted for the programme in window 10, 45 per cent went to companies registered outside of Wales. Does the Minister believe that this is right, that large companies from outside of Wales are taking advantage of Government funding and Welsh taxpayers' money to offset their carbon at the expense of our communities here? And is it in keeping with the Government's objectives, as we've heard, to support farms and rural communities in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, obviously, I would prefer all the money to go to Welsh farmers, but, obviously, the criteria is that trees have to be planted here in Wales. So, I'm afraid, at the moment, with that criteria, if the address is outside of Wales, they can apply for that money.
I think the issue of large companies buying up farmland—which, I think, is what you're obviously getting at—is something that I am told is happening on a big scale. I haven't personally seen it myself; I know that there are pockets. And I also know that there have been companies who have been cold calling our farmers to see if they can sell their farm to them. It's not for me to tell farmers who to sell their land to, but it's certainly not something I want to encourage.

Common Land

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 3. What is the Minister doing to help manage common land in South Wales East? OQ58943

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. We've provided funding to improve management of common land through our support schemes, and are working collaboratively with stakeholders to ensure that commons are integral in future support. In the South Wales East region, our sustainable management scheme has funded three projects on common land, totalling over £1 million.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I raise this matter as there have been problems occurring on common land within my region. The current relaxed model of ownership and accountability means that all it takes is a rogue landowner to expose the inherent flaws within the system.
Without going into too much detail about a local case that springs to mind, there is a glaring example in my region of how a landowner can get away with a multitude of crimes against the environment without significant repercussions from the authorities. I recently met with Caerphilly County Borough Council, and they told me how they are frustrated by the current arrangements. There need to be clear lines of accountability, and swift enforcement action where needed, if we are to protect and preserve our precious common land for future generations to enjoy.Can this Government provide clear direction and guidance, so that bad practice is tackled robustly and deterred from happening again? And can the Welsh Government also provide direction, guidance and support for any remedial action that needs to happen?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'm probably very well aware of the case that you refer to; it's something that has been very prominent. Hefin David and I have met a few times over the past few years around issues in relation to common land.
As you referred to, common land is managed by a range of organisations through a collaborative approach. You mentioned local authorities. Obviously, enforcement and strategic support is provided from Natural Resources Wales, and, of course, the police. And, unfortunately, sometimes, I don't think it's as collaborative as it should be, but, certainly, as a Government, we work closely to make sure that any issues around the management of common land are addressed. As I say, we provide strategic support to those organisations who have the responsibility for the day-to-day running of our common land.
We have provided significant funding to improve the management of common land. A huge amount of land in Wales is actually common land, and I mentioned, in my opening remarks to you, that the sustainable management scheme has funded three projects for over £1 million.As we bring forward the sustainable farming scheme, we have a specific working group that's looking at common land, because I think it is such an important part of our land here in Wales. And we've got a number of stakeholders who sit on that working group for us. And that is really to ensure that farmers on common land will be able to access the future support that they need.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, RWE Renewables has given notice that they intend to apply to the Welsh Government for planning permission in respect of a development of national significance. They wish to construct and operate a wind farm, a battery energy storage system and associated infrastructure on common land at—pardon my pronunciation—Pen March, Gelligaer. I've also been contacted by my constituents who are concerned by the development. If approved, they feel that it will damage small wetland areas that are home to rare plants, as well as birds and bats. Also, we already know—and I've spoken on this many times on the importance of wetlands, here in the Chamber, as they are important in relation to carbon storage. Wetlands are, in fact, some of the most effective carbon sinks on the planet—even more so than rain forests or coastal seagrass.
So, Minister, how will the Welsh Government, going forward, balance the environmental benefits of generating energy through wind power with the potential damage to the environment caused by this development on common land? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I am aware of the proposed Pen Marchwind farm on Merthyr common. I think it is really important to state, now, that the application is still in the preliminary stages, and obviously will need to be fully assessed to determine its potential impact.

The Use of Genetic Modification of Plants for Carbon Sequestration

Joel James MS: 4. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding the use of genetic modification of plants for carbon sequestration? OQ58948

Lesley Griffiths AC: I have not had any specific discussions with the Minister for Climate Change regarding genetic modification. Use of technology is an important means by which we will reach net zero. Welsh Government actively funds a range of research. At the current time, we do not see an important role for GMO in carbon sequestration.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Minister. Whilst I acknowledge this Government's cautionary approach to genetic engineering, I believe that it is shortsighted to ignore the fact that this technology has the potential to solve many of the problems that we are currently facing. I also believe that there is considerable potential for the genetic modification of certain plants, that will not enter the food chain, to help Wales meet its climate change target.
There's been considerable scientific study into the genetic engineering of plants, which has shown that gene editing can be used in native tree species to allow them to grow faster, to become more drought-resistant, more tolerant to temperature extremes and become disease-resistant, and I believe that this would not only help with sequestration of carbon in Wales, particularly in carbon sinking, but also help the Welsh Government combat plant diseases, and speed up the growth of trees using the Welsh timber trade for construction. Moreover, it has been shown that microalgae cultivation uses CO2 from industrial settings, such as power stations and factories, and can provide an environmentally friendly approach to reducing CO2, and the use of strains that have been genetically modified by biomass productivity could provide enormous benefits to these. With this in mind, I would, therefore, like to know, Minister, what evidence would this Government need to see in order to allow the use of genetically modified plants that will not enter the food chain to be used in Wales for carbon sequestration? Thank you.

Joel James MS: Thank you. Well, you are quite right: we do have a precautionary principle, absolutely, at the heart of our policy in relation to genetic modification and gene editing, and, obviously, I don't think you were in the Chamber yesterday, but we had a debate on the LCM on the UK Government's Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill.
New genetic techniques are powerful tools, but that power must be used very responsibly, and I think that it's really important that, as law makers, we carefully consider the evidence for change, and the potential ramifications that any change could have, or would have. We need to understand the scientific basis and the risks and benefits for Wales, and, as I say, we do put significant funding into that sort of research. I think we also need to consider the public's view, the consumer choice and their view on that, and the ethics that are associated with these technologies. I think, only then can we really decide what role gene-edited plants could have in tackling the climate emergency.

Urban Green Infrastructure

Rhianon Passmore AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government encouraging local authorities to enhance urban green infrastructure in Gwent? OQ58964

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Through our Transforming Towns regeneration programme, local authorities are encouraged to bring forward integrated green infrastructure solutions, as part of place-making plans for our towns. Green infrastructure projects across Gwent are enhancing the biodiversity of our town centres and improving the well-being of residents and visitors.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, Minister. Tory austerity is now a teenager; it's almost 13 years of age, and it continues to decimate local government budgets—this is despite the heroic efforts of Welsh Government. Caerphilly County Borough Council has just unveiled its draft budget proposals for 2023-24, along with the detail of how it plans to plug the projected £48 million gap in finances over the following two years. Minister, in Islwyn, urban green infrastructure, such as the beautiful Waunfawr park, sits at the heart of community life in Cross Keys. The park covers over 22 acres of land and comprises of a children's playground, rugby, football and cricket pitches, and it also includes a bowling green and tennis courts. When local governments must fund statutory services, what support and assurances can the Welsh Government give the communities of Islwyn that green urban infrastructure can be protected from Tory funding attacks?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think you raise a very important point, and certainly in the Minister for Finance and Local Government's questions, we heard lots of questions around different non-statutory functions and services that we value greatly, and I think you've just obviously given a very good example there.
I mentioned that we have several schemes. We've got the Transforming Towns placemaking scheme, we have our green infrastructure projects within that in your area, with significant—about £0.75 million—Welsh Government funding being awarded to four dedicated green infrastructure projects. I think it's really important that we continue to have those discussions with local government, because, at the risk of repeating myself, there is no more money. There is no money hidden away. So, I think those conversations need to be undertaken with local authorities.

Peter Fox AS: I thank the Member for raising the question. I will remind her that local government is devolved to Wales and has been for 23 years. But, green infrastructure is of course an important tool to help communities to mitigate the effects of climate change, as well as to help us meet our climate change commitments. Access to green space is also obviously beneficial to people's well-being. However, it's important that we don't just enhance the accessibility and quality of existing urban green infrastructure, but increase the coverage as well. As such, Minister, what consideration have you and your Cabinet colleagues given to encouraging local authorities to better map out existing green spaces and to assess whether communities have access to enough of the right kinds of green infrastructure in the right places? Using such data, how are you working with councils to identify suitable areas of land for new green infrastructure projects and then providing additional financial support and guidance to help them get these projects off the ground? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: You raise a really important point. It is important that there is integration in a town centre or a specific area with other investments in that particular town centre or that particular area. I think only that way will you achieve better outcomes. We provide a great deal of support for developments that form part of wider placemaking plans and green infrastructure projects, so those conversations will go on. I haven't had any specific—this has only recently come back into my portfolio—discussions with local authorities, but I know my officials do work closely to ensure that the cumulative impact, if you like, of a variety of schemes shows good integration.

Catfish

Gareth Davies AS: 6. What measures is the Welsh Government taking to reduce the catfish population in Denbighshire? OQ58949

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm aware of the discrete catfish population present in the Brickfield pond in Rhyl. NRW have been working with Brickfield angling club, who have been actively removing catfish. They are aware it is an offence to return any catfish caught to the water or move them to any other water.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Do not worry, I'm pleased to inform you that I won't be asking about online dating apps today. I've been contacted by constituents in the Rhyl area who are concerned about the amount of catfish in local waters, particularly around the Brickfield pond, as you mentioned, Minister, off Cefndy Road in Rhyl, and the Rivers Clwyd and Dee.To provide a brief background, large amounts of catfish were introduced to local waters in the 1990s and 2000s for the purpose of trophy catches, so that people could pose with their successful catch for photos and then return them to the water. But, in reality, and as the years have gone on, catfish numbers have increased and they are dangerous aquatic predators with teeth that kill many other species and birds in the water and are vastly reducing small fish populations in Denbighshire waters.
In a recent meeting with NRW, they told me that culling all of the fish in the Brickfield pond and Rivers Dee and Clwyd, or using nets to catch them, would be unethical and using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, which I quite agree with. So, how do we solve this problem, Minister, practically, and what action can the Welsh Government take to rectify this problem and ensure the long-term sustainability of small fish in local waters? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: As you were told by NRW, if we eradicated all the catfish in that pond, you wouldn't be able to do that without eradicating all the other fish. So, I absolutely understand the information you were given from NRW. My understanding is that Brickfield pond is part of a former quarry and is a self-contained water body. It's not connected to any other sources of freshwater, so that means it's not possible for the catfish to spread to other areas, reducing wider risk.

The Agriculture (Wales) Bill

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 7. How will the Government measure the success of the Agriculture (Wales) Bill 2022? OQ58966

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. There are a number of monitoring and reporting provisions contained in the Agriculture (Wales) Bill designed to measure success. Alongside an annual finance report, Welsh Ministers will be required to report on the impact of the support provided against the sustainable land management objectives.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Yes, one thing that isn't implicit in what you just said is that one important measure, according to much of the evidence received by the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, which has been scrutinising this Bill, is to what extent this Bill helps to protect family farms. When you have a network of family farms, you withstand the move to larger scale farming—which tends to be more intensive—which is better for the environment. You are more likely to keep the local pound local through family farms. It's also an important measure in terms of the viability of the Welsh language in those rural areas. So, do you, therefore, agree that the number of farms in Wales is an important barometer and that seeing a reduction in that number would be a signal of failure?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Everything I do is to protect family farms. You're quite right, we have a significant number of family farms. They're very, very important to our rural communities and, of course, they protect the Welsh language. The agricultural sector uses the Welsh language more than any other sector here in Wales. Absolutely everything we do is under that focus, if you like, going forward. And so, we’re looking at this as we bring forward the design scheme for a sustainable farming scheme, and we will have an impact report. That will be required to be completed periodically to assess the impact of all support provided and that will, of course, include the family farm.

James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd. I didn't think I had a question today. [Laughter.]

Well, if you didn't think you had a question, then you don't have a question.

James Evans MS: No, that's fine. I've already been called once. I'm thinking of others.

Question 8 [OQ58959] has been withdrawn. Question 9 by Vikki Howells. She appears just as I call her name. So, the next question will be question 9 by Vikki Howells. Your microphone was closed for a bit longer than usual. Vikki Howells.

Creating a Vibrant Agricultural Industry

Vikki Howells AC: 9. What are the Welsh Government's priorities for creating a vibrant agricultural industry sector? OQ58946

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Agriculture (Wales) Bill establishes four sustainable land management objectives as the legislative framework for future agricultural policy. The objectives are designed to be complementary, reflecting our approach to supporting the economic, environmental, social and cultural sustainability of the agricultural sector in Wales.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. As a Member of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, I visited the Agriculture Research Centre at Gelli Aur last year to find out more about their farm-nutrient partnership. What conclusions have the Welsh Government drawn from this project in terms of the ways in which slurry treatment can be used to support the agricultural sector, but also to protect the environment in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I visited the Agriculture Research Centre at Gelli Aur twice myself to hear about the amazing work that's under way, and it was good to see so much progress had been made between my two visits. I very much welcome the research that's been undertaken there. I can see great promise to enable our farms to utilise the nutrients from manures much more efficiently. Slurry separation and the management of the separated nutrients really do provide an opportunity, I think, particularly in light of high fertiliser prices, which we've certainly seen over the last year or so, and that really ensures that valuable nutrients are able to be added to nutrient-deficient areas so that they can increase their resilience and reduce the reliance on manufactured fertilisers. The work being done on the nutrient management plans with the precision spreading of the separated materials I think will also help ensure the right nutrient application at the right time, and, of course, that's essential if we want to reduce the risk of pollution.

Protecting Threatened Wildlife Species

Mark Isherwood AC: 10. What action is the Welsh Government taking to protect threatened wildlife species? OQ58941

Lesley Griffiths AC: A team Wales approach is taken to protect threatened wildlife. On 10 January, my colleague the Minister for Climate Change announced measures to support a wide range of wildlife species, including many that are threatened. These measures include direct stewardship and enhancements to the habitats and ecosystems that support our wildlife.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Trees provide numerous environmental, social and economic benefits, and tree planting is widely considered to be one of the most important ways to combat climate change and poor air quality. However, the decline in the curlew is strongly associated with increased amounts of woodland near breeding sites. Although the iconic curlew is our most pressing bird conservation priority, it will be extinct as a breeding population within a decade without intervention. However, woodland continues to be seen as a public good, even when it provides an ideal habitat for the apex predators whose predation of nests and chicks is a primary cause of curlew breeding failure. As the Welsh Government Minister responsible for the protection of management of wildlife, what specific action are you taking to ensure that the Welsh Government's target for woodland planting in Wales takes account of this, and that, although the snares of yesteryear are not acceptable, modern humane cable restraints are recognised as holding devices not killing devices, with a key ole to play amongst the range of urgent intervention measures needed to prevent imminent curlew extinction and to reverse biodiversity loss?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You're quite right, the curlew is an iconic farmland and moorland bird. I am pleased that you continue to champion it. I was due to meet Curlew Wales and, unfortunately, I had to postpone the meeting. I can't remember quite why, but I will make sure that I reschedule that meeting, because I'm certainly very interested to hear what they have to say.
You're quite right about trees and, certainly, if we're going to meet our net-zero commitments, we have been told in very clear terms by the UK Committee for Climate Change we need to significantly increase our woodland planting targets.
You refer to humane cable restraints and, as you know, we're looking to ban snare and humane cable restraints in the Agriculture (Wales) Bill 2022, and that really is about preventing inhumane methods being used, and it doesn't prevent other more humane methods of control.

Improving Energy Efficiency in Arfon

Siân Gwenllian AC: 11. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change about how farmers can contribute to improving energy efficiency in Arfon? OQ58969

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. I have regular engagement with the Minister for Climate Change on a range of portfolio issues. Regarding farmers improving energy efficiency, our sustainable farming scheme will offer future support to help farmers decarbonise and, currently, we offer farmers energy efficiency support through our small grants efficiency scheme, which opened two days ago.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Recently, I had an opportunity to visit a new centre on the site of an old factory in the Nantlle valley, which is decarbonisation hub or centre in Tŷ Gwyrddfai in Penygroes, which brings a number of partners together with a core aim of improving energy efficiency of people's homes, not just in Arfon, but across north Wales and further afield. An important part of this work will be innovation with new methods of improving housing stock, and Bangor University is part of this work. I believe that the agricultural community has an important contribution to make to this agenda, and one example is the use of wool as an insulation material in homes. So, what is the Government doing to harness the innovative potential of the agricultural community to improve energy efficiency in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You make a very important point about the role that our agriculture sector and our farmers can make in relation to energy efficiency. I met with the British Wool Council—it's probably 18 months ago now—where we discussed the use of Welsh wool, obviously, particularly from my point of view, in relation to insulation, for instance. They believe that there are more—probably 'worth while' is the wrong term—more efficient uses of British wool than just insulation, but I think what we need to look at is all the technology that's available, all the innovation that's available to help us with energy efficiency. I mentioned that we just open the window for the small grants efficiency scheme. I really want that scheme to be able to offer direct support to our farmers so that they can invest in new technology and equipment to really enhance the technical and financial and environmental performance of their business.

The Health of the Egg Industry

Darren Millar AC: 12. What assessment has the Minister made of the health of the Welsh egg industry? OQ58957

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The egg industry has been impacted by cost inflation rising through 2021 and latterly by avian influenza. These are common factors across the UK, with Welsh egg producers and packers integrated into UK-wide supply chains. We anticipate UK-level Government-industry discussion to consider means to bring stability to producer contracts.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. I'm very pleased that you do recognise the pressures that are out there in the egg industry. As you will know, Wales is the biggest producer of free-range eggs in Europe, and that is something that means that this is a particularly important issue for Wales, perhaps more so than any other part of the United Kingdom. But those pressures on producers are becoming all the more acute. We've seen shortages of eggs in our supermarkets, with some supermarkets actually rationing them in recent months. And we've seen significant rises, of course, for consumers. In terms of the retail price, they've gone up by about £1 a dozen, and yet the producer costs have gone up by 40p a dozen, and, unfortunately, the increase in the payments by the supermarkets per dozen is just 25p. So, lots of egg producers are actually now facing losses as a result of those shifting prices. Can I ask you, Minister, will you convene a summit between the supermarkets and egg producers in order that we can get fair prices for our egg farmers here in Wales, in order to protect this industry for the future?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you make a very important point, and I think it's really important to highlight that it's not just avian influenza that's impacting on our egg producers. There is a series of issues that have brought together a bit of a perfect storm. I think any such summit would need to be at a UK level, for the reasons I outlined in my original answer. I have written to Mark Spencer, the Minister for farming, fisheries and food, and we've got an inter-ministerial group on Monday, and certainly egg production will be on the agenda. If it's not, I'll bring it up under 'any other business'. He brought forward a round-table, which unfortunately other Ministers weren't invited to. My officials were there, so I'm not saying we weren't involved. But I think it would be good for Ministers to be able to meet with the egg supply chain, with producers, with retailers, with packers, with all the trade bodies, which is what he did with officials there. So, I have written to him, asking for an update. I only wrote on 15 December, so, obviously, with Christmas, I haven't had a response as yet. But I do think it does need a UK-wide—. I could certainly meet with the supermarkets, and I do meet with the supermarkets regularly, where we do have discussions, but I think if we're going to have a summit of the type I think you're referring to, it would be better to do that on a UK-wide level.

Thank you to the Minister. All tabled questions answered well within allocated time—it's making me think we should go back to 15 questions being allowed to be tabled, with that record. Thank you to the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Item 3 is next, the topical question. The question is to be asked by James Evans, and is to be answered by the Minister for education. James Evans.

School Closures

James Evans MS: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on his expectations of his meetings with the teaching trade unions later this week in terms of avoiding school closures? TQ711

Jeremy Miles AC: I'll be meeting with teacher and head unions tomorrow, along with local authorities, who are the employers, to discuss the outcome of ballots and discuss next steps. I am committed to working with partners to secure a resolution to the dispute, and this tripartite meeting will help explore ways of addressing teachers' concerns.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank you for that answer, Minister. The Welsh Government do hold all the levers here to prevent the strikes, and it's time that the Welsh Government did take some responsibility for this, by, for example, not cutting the education budget in real terms and rising it in line with inflation. Under Welsh Labour, children in Wales are being left behind. Not only did they miss more school days than anyone else in the UK due to lockdowns, not only are they getting less money spent on them than their counterparts in England, but now they have to deal with these strikes and potentially missing more lesson time, when I'm sure, Minister, you should agree with me that it's better that our teachers are in the classroom, educating our young people for the future.
I do have a suggestion that perhaps the Minister goes back to his Cabinet colleagues and asks them to free up more hundreds of millions of pounds earmarked for vanity projects that aren't in his portfolio, like the expansion of this Senedd, the owning of Gilestone Farm, owning an airport that is losing money. And if the Government gets its priorities in order, I'm sure you, Minister, would have more money to spend on our teachers. So, Minister, given my suggestion, will you stop passing the buck, as you did on tv, and stop using the same old Welsh Government line of blaming Westminster? And what constructive options will you be taking to the table this week for preventing school closures, because this one is surely your responsibility?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, these are serious matters that deserve better than political knock-about in this Chamber. His mischaracterisation of the education system in Wales is consistent with that of his colleagues on those benches. Unlike the Conservative Government in Westminster, we are not responding to strikes by bringing forward draconian laws that undermine people's fundamental rights. In Wales, we believe, as a Welsh Government, that the best way to resolve disputes of this sort is through discussion, respectful discussion, with our partners, with goodwill and an in attempt to reach a constructive solution, and that is very much the spirit in which we will have the discussions with unions and local authorities in Wales.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. I'm very pleased to hear your commitment to having discussions this week. Clearly, this isn't an easy situation for anyone, choosing to strike, and it's regrettable that we've reached this point. But it's not unexpected either that we have reached this particular point; the unions made it clear that the Government's offer wasn't going to be acceptable to them. So, will you be able to commit to making an improved offer to them? Because, clearly, this isn't just about teachers but also those working in our schools in supporting the teaching workforce, doing very important work. And in terms of your personal commitment in terms of ensuring that our pupils don't lose out on crucial education following COVID and so on, why have we reached this point, and what will be different about these discussions in order to give us that hope that we won't reach a position of having to see teachers on strike?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think that everyone agrees that our children should be at school receiving their education, but nobody takes these decisions to strike lightly. We have four unions, and two have had votes in favour of industrial action, but whatever the thresholds the unions have, we respect and we hear the messages that we are hearing from teachers in those ballots. I'm not going to discuss in the Senedd today the nature of the discussions we intend to have or the proposals for any discussions that we have with regard to the settlement. Those discussions take place in the context of our social partners, in the way that we always operate, and I know that the Member accepts and supports that stance. But, as I've said, we'll do everything within the very real limitations on us as a Government to get the best possible settlement.

Thank you, Minister.

Point of Order

I have agreed to a point of order, and Heledd Fychan with that point of order.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd. May I ask you review your guidance in terms of hybrid working, given an unfortunate situation that arose in the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee this morning? The start of the meeting had to be postponed as we were scrutinising the draft budget, as the Deputy Minister was unexpectedly not in attendance in the committee room, despite being in the building. Given your recent communication, our understanding was that everyone, Ministers and committee members, were expected to be in attendance for scrutiny sessions, and, most importantly, if we are in the building, that we are expected to be in this Chamber. And we thought that that also applied to committees. As the temporary Chair today, I asked officials to ask the Deputy Minister to attend, as she was in the building, but it became apparent that, to avoid further delay, we had to proceed in a hybrid format, but we missed three quarters of an hour of the meeting. So, to avoid future delays of that kind, further guidance would be beneficial.

Alun Davies, further to that point of order.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Presiding Officer for allowing me to contribute to this point of order. It was certainly unfortunate what happened this morning, and we accept that. However, the Deputy Minister herself was put into a difficult situation and I attach no blame to the Deputy Minister for the circumstances of what happened this morning. I think the lessons we need to learn in terms of Standing Orders, Presiding Officer, are to enable other committee members to take the chair when necessary and not simply when the Chair is absent. I think that would be a useful thing to do, to look at again, but also then to ensure that the Government is in a position to fully give evidence when it is required to do so. And the point I would make to Ministers—there's one Minister in the Chamber this afternoon—is that we took evidence subsequently from the education Minister, Jeremy Miles, and the evidence we received from Jeremy was first class, and one of the reasons for that was that he was in the room with us and he was able to provide a far greater explanation for his policies and his approach as a consequence of that. So, I attach no blame to the Deputy Minister for the circumstances this morning; it was outside of her control. But I hope that the lesson that Ministers will learn from this is, from their own point of view, they're better off here than there.

And the Deputy Minister herself is intending to, or wanting to, contribute to the point of order. Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I just think perhaps a fuller explanation of the circumstances would help the Senedd, and I'm not necessarily opposing Heledd Fychan's point of order in terms of getting some clarity around this and the way that the committee scrutiny takes place, but, just to put on record what actually happened, the weather, as you know, was very, very bad this morning and I nearly never made it from Merthyr Tydfil. So, had that happened, I would have had to have joined remotely in any case, but I did come in to Tŷ Hywel. It took me somewhere in the region of an hour and a half or more to get from Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff, so I only arrived in Tŷ Hywel literally just before the meeting was due to start, and it wasn't until I arrived, just before 9:30, that I was advised by my private office that none of my officials would be attending committee in person; they would all be joining online. I'd been completely unaware of that until that point, and, in those circumstances, I didn't feel it was reasonable for me to attend committee in person on my own, when I would be unable to have direct access to officials, as I'd be able to do if they were there in person. However, if I joined remotely, I would be able to communicate with them electronically if I needed to, and, on that basis, I advised the committee that I would join online to give my evidence.
It took the committee some 45 minutes of discussion to conclude that they were prepared to allow me to do that, so the only issue I would take on that is that the delay of 45 minutes was not of my making; I was ready to give evidence online at 9:30 as scheduled. I would have preferred to give my evidence in person, and I think the point that Alun Davies has made is a point well-made; I do believe that evidence sessions are better in person. The last time I gave evidence to the committee was in person, and I had officials with me in person as well. I'm unaware of what discussions took place between committee clerks and my officials before the meeting that agreed to their online participation, but I was unaware of that, as I thought that the entire meeting was being held in person. So, it was about ensuring that I had the appropriate official support in the appropriate way to be able to present my evidence effectively.

Thank you to the Deputy Minister. Unusually, I've allowed a point of order on a piece of committee business for this session. I've heard all the perspectives of the Members involved, and, as Members know, we're in a new way of working: this is uncharted territory to a certain extent. Guidance, as Heledd Fychan has said, has been issued to Members. We have new experience as of this morning. Regrettably, a committee was delayed by 45 minutes in its ministerial scrutiny. If it is the case that guidance needs to be strengthened as a result of this morning's experience and the experience of committees generally over the past weeks, then I'll ask the Chairs' forum in its very next meeting to reflect on all of that and what has been shared with us from today's experience and to see whether there is a need to strengthen the guidance to all Members, including Ministers, on attendance in committee virtually or in person. So, yes, we'll move on to Plenary business now. Thank you to all concerned for sharing your views on that.

4. 90-second Statements

The 90-second statements are next. The only statement today is from Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Llywydd. This month marks 200 years since the birth of Alfred Russel Wallace, a naturalist whose ideas helped change the world. Born near Usk, he spent much of his early life in England and moved back to Wales to work as a surveyor in Neath. During his spare time, he furthered his scientific pursuits, and, in his autobiography, he referred to the impact his time in Neath had on him, developing his interest in the natural world, saying,
'I cannot call to mind a single valley that in the same extent of country comprises so much beautiful and picturesque scenery, and so many interesting special features, as the Vale of Neath.'
Following his time in Neath, he travelled the world, and upon his return published some of his findings. He wrote to one of his heroes, Charles Darwin, and they jointly published articles on their studies. A year later, and likely prompted by Wallace, Darwin would publish On the Origin of Species. Though his work on evolution is what many remember him for, Wallace wrote on many other subjects, including workers' rights, women's suffrage, land ownership and poverty.
Today, he continues to be remembered and celebrated. The Alfred Russel Wallace trail in Neath Port Talbot includes many of the places he lived, visited or worked at during his time there, including places like Bryncoch farm, Neath abbey, the Vale of Neath Railway, Melincourt waterfall and Neath mechanics' institute. Recently, Theatr na nÓg, a Neath-based company, commemorated Alfred Russel Wallace by putting on special performances of their award-winning production of Geinor Styles's play You Should Ask Wallace. More than two centuries after his birth, Wallace is rightfully regarded as one of the most influential thinkers who ever lived. Neath and all of Wales are rightfully proud of him.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Thank you.

5. Debate on the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee Report: 'The future of bus and rail in Wales'

Item 5 this afternoon is a debate on the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee report, 'The future of bus and rail in Wales'.I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Llyr Gruffydd.

Motion NDM8180 Llyr Gruffydd
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report, 'The future of bus and rail in Wales', laid on 6 October 2022.

Motion moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to be able to open this debate today, and I'd like to start by thanking all the stakeholders and members of the public who contributed to the committee's work. I'm also pleased, of course, that the Minister has accepted all but one of our recommendations, but we'll get to that later
This report comes in two parts. Part 1 reflects the committee’s annual scrutiny session with Transport for Wales, and part 2 covers broader issues concerning the recovery of bus and rail services in Wales post COVID-19. It's therefore a wide-ranging report, and I won't have time to do more than touch on some of the more critical issues as I open this debate today.
First, I want to talk about our scrutiny of Transport for Wales. The committee had concerns about several aspects of the governance arrangements in Transport for Wales. This mainly concerned the publication of business and financial plans and, consequently, the organisation's transparency. To be fair, the COVID pandemic period was a challenging time for Transport for Wales. We were told that its budget during this period was very much in flux and was changing almost weekly. It seems churlish to criticise the organisation for not publishing business and financial plans in this context perhaps. But having said that, they are fundamental tools to assess how well Transport for Wales performs against its remit and whether it delivers value for money. One of our recommendations was therefore that Transport for Walesshould get its house in order. From this year onwards, it should publish business and financial plans before the start of each financial year.
There have been historic problems with the presentation of Transport for Wales's budget allocations, making it almost impossible to scrutinise how much money is being allocated and for what purpose. Again, we had some sympathy with Transport for Wales. The chief executive told us that the budget-setting process could involve as many as 25 bilateral discussions with different Welsh Government budget holders. This seems terribly bureaucratic to us as a committee. Openness and transparency should be fundamental principles for public organisations such as Transport for Wales, and streamlining this process would in our view help in that regard.
I'm grateful that the Welsh Government accepted all the recommendations in part 1 of our report and that Transport for Wales are therefore to take them forward. Since the publication of the report, we've seen good progress in the areas of governance and transparency. We will be holding our annual scrutiny session with Transport for Waleslater this year and, of course, will return to these issues to see whether the situation has improved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The second part of our report covers the broader issue, as I was saying, of bus and rail recovery after the COVID pandemic. On behalf of the committee I would particularly like to thank the members of the public who fed into the committee's work through the various focus groups and interviews held across Wales on this issue. The pandemic had a massive impact on the numbers using public transport. Many people were scared to get on the bus or the train. There were reductions in services, and those in the poorest areas, by the way, were the hardest hit in that regard. But many of the fundamental changes we saw during the pandemic, such as online shopping and the increasing prevalence of working from home, were becoming far more common in our society pre pandemic. But of course it’s become far more usual now for people, as I say, to work from home and so on.
Bus and rail services are critical not only in order for us to meet our climate change targets in Wales, but also to create a society where people can easily access the services, education and work they need for a full life. So, the question for us as a committee was, of course: what needs to be done to encourage more people to use public transport? Our report, as you would expect, considers many of these issues.
Achieving modal shift must be at the core of this work. First, we need to understand what kind of public transport people want and how they want to use it. How permanent are the changes we saw during the pandemic and since, and what will future patterns look like? I’m pleased that the Deputy Minister has accepted all of our recommendations in this area. I was also pleased to see that the Deputy Minister referred to a national travel survey for Wales in his response. I would be grateful if he could tell us more, perhaps, about the survey and how it will be used to influence future policy and budget decisions, when he responds to this debate.
Secondly, we need to base policies on suitable targets. The Welsh Government's transport strategy and net-zero plan set modal shift targets. For example, 7 per cent of trips should be made by public transport by 2030, and that should increase to 13 per cent by 2040. These are stretching targets, and I’m certainly not going to criticise the Deputy Minister for showing ambition in this area, but too many of our stakeholders questioned whether the current public transport offer is good enough to put us on the right trajectory to reach the 2030 target.
We need to make it easy, and easier, for people to leave the car at home and take the bus or the train instead. We know from our work with stakeholders that cost, convenience and access to services are the three priority areas for users. We can discuss the intricacies of behaviour change as much as we like, but addressing those three points would certainly be a good start.
I had the pleasure earlier today of speaking at the launch of the Confederation of Passenger Transport Cymru’s report about encouraging car users to switch to bus and coach. It is notable, by the way, that very similar issues are raised in our report and the report published this afternoon.
On the cost of public transport, transport poverty was a particular concern for us as a committee. Transport poverty affects some demographic groups disproportionately, including disabled people, older people and women. One of our recommendations was that the Welsh Government should provide subsidised fare pricing and other aspects of financial support. I would like to hear more from the Deputy Minister on the latest position on these proposals.
Delivering an integrated transport network that people can easily access when they need to, and which is affordable, will not be easy. For a start, we know that it will take substantial investment. Members will all be aware of the historical underfunding of rail infrastructure in Wales. How can we develop an integrated transport system if we don’t have proper investment in rail infrastructure? And I’m pleased that the Deputy Minister recognises the case for the full devolution of responsibility for rail, and for ensuring that the UK Government does allocate fair funding. In the face of decisions like those we saw in the context of HS2 and the fact that the UK Government has apparently refused to even consider an appropriate funding solution for Wales, it's difficult to disagree with the case for devolution.
On funding for buses, the current Welsh Government policy is for 50 per cent of the most polluting service buses to be replaced by a zero-tailpipe-emission bus fleet by 2028, and for all taxis and private-hire vehicles to be zero emission by 2028—the same year. Now, the cost of decarbonising the bus sector will be high, and the sector will need financial support to deliver that. The Deputy Minister has said that delivery plans are being prepared to meet the targets set out in Net Zero Wales, and I'd be grateful if he could tell us more about that in his response.
Dirprwy Lywydd, as I said at the outset, this is a wide-ranging report, and I have not been able to cover all issues in my contribution. It's possible that other Members will have an opportunity to focus on some of those. But I want to conclude by saying that the next few years will be exciting for bus and rail. The bus reform Bill offers a significant opportunity to improve bus services in Wales and, most importantly, to ensure that they are more customer focused. There is also progress on metro schemes, and there's a major piece of work for us to do as a committee in keeping an eye on developments in that area. But although progress is being made, we do need to ask that same old question: is that progress happening swiftly enough? The broader financial context has made it more difficult to reach the Government's net-zero transport targets, but all I will say in concluding the first contribution to this debate is that, as a committee, we will certainly continue to assess progress and to report back to the Senedd on it. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: First off, I'd like to thank the Chairman, my fellow committee members, as well as all the panelists and staff who supported us in our work on this report. Now, between the pandemic, strike action and the cost-of-living crisis, public transport in Wales and across the UK is facing a wide variety of challenges. This means it's even more important than ever for the Welsh Government to deliver a joined-up sustainable plan for bus and rail companies. It's also important to look ahead to the future. Recommendation 6 of the report states that
'The Welsh Government should provide an update on the work it is undertaking with other partners to understand future travel patterns...and their impact'.
I know that my colleague Natasha Asghar will have more to say on the scrutiny of Transport for Wales, but as shadow Minister for climate change, I'd like to reiterate how important public transport by rail and bus is to meeting our environmental targets. If the Welsh Government wants to meet Wales's net-zero obligations, people need access to travel that is both reliable and affordable. Only this morning we were talking about the road scheme having been stopped by the Deputy Minister. That's all well and good if you've got the public transport infrastructure in place, and sadly we don't have that in Wales.
Access to public transport, particularly bus travel, is essential to address social deprivation and mobility. University of South Wales research found that the most deprived areas saw the greatest decline in access to services due to the pandemic. Evidence from Transport for Wales shows that 13 per cent of Welsh households don't even have access to a car, and 25 per cent of bus users have a disability or a long-term illness. So, the Welsh Government, Minister and Deputy Minister, need to consider what can be done to help our most vulnerable, often living in quite socially isolated areas. The current cost-of-living crisis cannot result in those who are struggling losing their access to public transport.
Recommendation 15 states that
'The Welsh Government should set out what assessment it has made of the impact of energy costs and the cost-of-living crisis on its modal shift targets.'
As we mentioned in the report, the UK Government has already moved to cap bus fares outside of London at £2. Silviya Barrett confirmed that bus services in Wales declined by 45 per cent in the 10 years between 2011-12 and 2020-21, but in that last year, between March 2020 and March 2021, which was the first year of the pandemic, the cuts were 36 per cent. According to Joe Rossiter, the reduction of rail and bus services has had a significant impact on our rural communities and—this is the crux of the issue—not everyone is being affected equally by the reduction in services. People in remote and rural communities will disproportionately feel the impacts of reductions in service. And as we note in the report, there are risks that the proposed franchising system outlined in the bus reform Bill could actually close out smaller operators. These operators, particularly in rural Wales, are well placed to understand the needs of their local communities and respond to changes in demand. Certainly in my constituency, we have Llew Jones, who's a small bus operator, and he really works with the community and the passengers. We've also got now the introduction of the Fflecsi bus service, and that's proving to be a really worthwhile scheme.
We agree with the suggestion that the Bill should include provision to ensure that smaller companies can participate in the franchising process. We're pleased that the White Paper acknowledges this and includes proposals for addressing it. However, we do need to emphasise that the process should be designed in such a way as to minimise the cost of submitting bids for those smaller operators. Whilst I appreciate the financial constraints, there is more that could be done with the organisations that are already in place. In particular, we've seen clear evidence of a lack of co-ordination in delivering transport between different local authorities. Josh Miles believed that ‘Bws Cymru’ has lots of the right areas in it, but his main concern was that some of the underpinning elements of the strategy were simply not being delivered. He said there needs to be a focus on delivery, and that
'Local authorities don't have much by way of staff or resources to be able to put into the process at the moment.... So, there are just a lot of things going on and we haven't quite got the coherence or the investment to deliver things yet'.
Comments made by our witnesses such as these highlight that a lack of joined-up thinking can impact transport policy. It’s something that the report's already identified and we need to seek to address. I appreciate that some of these views have been taken on board. The reputation, consistency and reliability of public transport—

Janet, can you conclude now, please?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —all need to improve if we are to return to public transport, as per recommendation 7. Diolch.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Professor Mark Barry, who was one of our witnesses, and who's a transport expert, told us that Wales has been poorly served by the rail industry ecosystem for the last 30 to 40 years in terms of investment and enhancement funding. That takes us back to roughly 1980, so this is a problem of both Conservative and Labour administrations. However, the current UK Government seems to be very difficult to follow in terms of the logic of any of their arguments. To argue that the £52 billion HS2 investment should not generate any consequential for Wales is really absolute gobbledygook. It makes it very difficult to work out whether or not we're going to be able to have a grown-up relationship with them, because, regardless of that futile argument, they have yet to upgrade the infrastructure on the east-west main rail line. That is of particular concern to the area I represent, because the Burns plan for the south-east Wales metro assumes that two of the four rail lines that run east to west will be the spine of that proposal. The economy Minister was unable to elucidate us in any shape or form yesterday, so I'd be grateful if the Deputy Minister could indicate whether there's been any glimmer of light as to whether the Rishi Sunak Government is taking this issue more seriously. Because it really is a justice issue, as well as something that should be given his attention if he wants to hold the UK together. So, that is absolutely key for me.
I think the other issue is around the bus industry. I'm very glad to hear from Janet Finch-Saunders that the Fflecsi buses are working up in north Wales. And that's really helpful, because it could be that that's a model for elsewhere where there's not such a concentration of people. I have to say that the investment that we've managed to secure in Cardiff and Newport for electric buses has hugely improved the air quality of the areas, because they're no longer belching out horrendous diesel. So, that really has been fantastic. Thank you to the Welsh Government, which has empowered local authorities to get on with claiming for what is available from the UK Government. That's something that other local authorities really need to to something more about.
In terms of the really serious debate as to how we get people out of their cars and onto public transport, there's obviously a huge amount of work to be done. I heard that, at the seminar that was organised by the public transport organisation that Llyr took part in—I wasn't able to go—somebody suggested that pricing people out of using their cars was a non-starter because they would have to up the costs of running a car by more than £250 before people would stop using their cars and switch to public transport. I have to assume that that figure has well been passed, because insurance has gone up massively and petrol prices have gone up massively. For most people, it must have exceeded that £250. So, that is an opportunity for us, as well as a threat—[Interruption.] Yes.

Alun Davies AC: I accept the point you make, although I wouldn't go all the way down the brutality of that route. But pricing people out of a car only works where public transport is available. In places like the ones I represent, that public transport isn't available, so what you're doing is hammering the poorest and most vulnerable people.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I accept that argument, Alun, and I think it's a well-made point. But I think, clearly, we've got to develop more services, and we can't hammer people. I would be in favour of using those fiscal levers as soon as there are those alternatives. Clearly, if you look at the Cardiff population, people do not need to bring their cars into the city centre, and, happily, it's increasingly more difficult for them to do so. I'm hoping that Cardiff Council will have the guts to raise significantly the price of city centre parking. People, futilely, queue to get into particular car parks at Christmastime, and it's just amazing—

Alun Davies AC: This has almost become a conversation, but—

Time is also running out.

Alun Davies AC: —my constituents use those car parks, and your constituents who work in the city centre rely on my constituents using Cardiff as a local city. We don't have the opportunity to do anything except drive into Cardiff. We need that, and so the danger is you're creating a division between Cardiff and the Valleys.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you for your intervention, and you're completely wrong. You're wrong because—

Jenny, if you wish to answer the question and then close up, because time is going on.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The park and ride system is absolutely excellent. It costs you £2 for the whole family and then you don't have all the sweat and bother of trying to find a car parking place. Those arrangements are available right around the city, so that is not an argument that I will accept.
I think there's a lot more we need to do, but I also think we need to do a lot more to get people without cars able to get around, not just for their everyday journeys but also for leisure opportunities, to be able to go and visit Storey Arms. I do recall the free bus service that was started by the previous economy Minister, which enabled my constituents to get to Storey Arms for nothing on a Saturday. I'd be very keen to find out exactly what the outcome was of that, and whether we could do more things like that to make people understand that travelling by bus is a great opportunity.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you to the Chair and clerking team for their important work in this area. It's entirely clear—and it's become apparent as we listen to the debate—that bus and rail transport play a vital role as we strive to reach our climate change targets, and create a society where everyone can access the services that they need, be that in care, leisure, work, education, or anything else that's important to people's lives. However, at the moment, that is not possible for everyone. All too often, for many, public transport is neither affordable or frequent, and trains and buses don't go where people need them to go.
I welcome the Welsh Government’s target of seeing 45 per cent of journeys being made in a sustainable way by 2040. I would also ask whether that is sufficiently ambitious. Perhaps the increase of around 1 per cent per annum during the climate emergency doesn't really reflect the ambition that we need. What exactly is the Government doing, and what is planned, to facilitate people's efforts to make this shift? That's the core of the problem. We have a rail system that often grinds to a halt during heavy rain, or extreme heat, or if it's snowing—any sort of weather that's not frequent—and this is going to happen more and more often. What is normal is going to change. Trains are often late or cancelled, tickets are far too expensive, and working conditions of railway staff are declining as the economic impacts are felt. It's a kind of perfect storm.
It's important to be honest in politics, so I want to put on record that this isn’t all the Welsh Government’s fault. The heart of the problem—we've already heard this—is the Westminster Government that doesn’t care a jot about the people of Wales—a Government that underfunds our railways deliberately by denying us £5 billion in HS2 funding, for example, money the Welsh Government could use to transform our railways. As Jenny said, it's a gobbledegook decision. Decarbonising rail is another challenge for the Welsh Government. We need to improve rail infrastructure, improve grid storage, connectivity and capacity, and this is relevant to transport too. I would like to hear more from the Deputy Minister about progress in this area, as well as the next steps in terms of decarbonisation.
Turning, finally, to accessibility, I asked the Minister about women’s safety on our railways last week. Since then, I have learnt that some councils, for example Newport, intend to turn off street lights overnight in order to save money. What are the implications of that for the safety of women who want to use public transport at night? What's the Government's view on that?
In moving forward, improving people’s ability to use public transport is vital to tackle social inequality and people’s ability to travel. Again, this has already been raised. Bearing in mind that 13 per cent of households in Wales do not have a car, and 25 per cent of people who use buses have a disability or a long-term illness, as well as the fact that the most disadvantaged people saw the greatest decline in terms of people’s ability to access and use services, it is important that action happens now. What is clear is that we need a route to the provision of free public transport in future, starting with those in greatest need: young people, people in rural communities and those on low incomes. In the meantime—and I will conclude with this, Dirprwy Lywydd—will the Welsh Government bring forward plans to tackle transport poverty?

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you to the Chair, the committee members and the clerking team of the climate change committee for producing such a comprehensive report. I'm glad to see the joint approach used of considering bus and rail services together. In the last Senedd, I sat on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, and I enjoyed taking part in our separate investigations then into bus and rail, but a point that I often made at that time was that, for areas like mine in the Cynon Valley, buses are the vital element linking what can be remote communities into the train network. We cannot see them apart, so I welcome the committee's approach. I'm also pleased that this joined-up thinking is embedded within the heart of the south Wales metro plans, and it's positive to note the progress towards delivery of this, which I can visibly see in my constituency. I'd like to put on record my thanks to the Transport for Wales team for keeping me informed of local developments in this regard, not least so that I can keep my constituents informed in turn.
Turning to the recommendations in the report, I want to touch on a few key points. I think recommendation 6 around understanding future travel patterns is key to what we all want to achieve in terms of putting in place a transformative public transport network that is fit for purpose. That network must enable Welsh citizens to travel for work and education, leisure and pleasure. I look forward to the Welsh Government releasing information on its planned national transport survey in due course. I also look forward to hearing what mechanisms will be put in place so that it captures the views and experiences of all sections of Welsh society.
Recommendation 7 is also vitally important. We want to make sure that people get back on the buses. I applaud the money that the Welsh Government has made available to support bus services during the pandemic, but I am also concerned that forthcoming plans for legislation on buses won't achieve all that they could do unless, for example, councils are given sufficient funding to run services. For example, I'm dealing with cases in my constituency where there is no bus service to Cwmdare or Cwmbach after 5.30 p.m., and these are not rural outposts, they're villages just outside the town itself, leaving constituents—many of whom are older and do not have private transport—effectively isolated. That cannot be something that we allow to continue. If these services, as I am told, are unsustainable for private providers, how will this differ for the local authority? How can this be facilitated during the current economic climate? Without getting this right, all we may achieve is shifting the blame for poor bus services onto local authorities. So, I look forward to any reassurance that the Deputy Minister can give on this point.
Recommendation 8 is also vitally important. The best planned bus network in the world will come to nothing if we don't have drivers in place to make sure that it can operate. I've supported my own local trade union branches to resolve local issues as they arise, and I'm certain that Welsh Government will ensure that our trade unions also have a part to play in these discussions. We must recognise that decent pay across all areas, not localised pay awards, and ensuring good working conditions are key to workforce retention.
Finally, recommendation 9. We need to make it economical for people to access public transport, but I'm deeply concerned that the reality of ticket prices may be having a deterrent effect, especially when other circumstances are factored in, such as services being cancelled at short notice. For example, consider a parent from Pen-y-Waun, one of the least affluent parts of my constituency, taking their two teenage children, for example, to their nearest GP surgery in Trecynon. That journey would be just over 1.5 miles, but the price of three tickets is actually the same as the cost of a taxi journey that would take you door to door. Worryingly, one local bus provider has announced that ticket prices will be increasing by almost 10 per cent from the end of this month, and return adult tickets would also be scrapped. I notice the various strands of work that Welsh Government has put in place to try and seek a resolution, and again, I also recognise the very real funding pressures that Ministers are under, but we've got to get this right to make public transport a sensible, sustainable, realistic and affordable choice. Diolch.

Natasha Asghar AS: I welcome this report. As the Chair began with saying, I note that, of its 26 recommendations, only one was rejected by the Welsh Government. I'd also like to address my remarks this afternoon to some of the recommendations that it contains. Recommendation 7 refers to encouraging passengers to return to public bus services. I very much agree with this, as I'm sure many of my colleagues in the Chamber and beyond do as well. The Welsh Government's aim has been, from day one, from what I've been hearing, to get people out of their cars, off the roads and to use public transport instead. All well and good. This is a noble intention without any doubt, and it would reduce congestion and carbon emissions. However, it can only work if a strong and efficient public transport network is here in the first place.
There is no doubt that people living here in Wales and across south-east Wales in my region, as my colleague Alun Davies said, are very car dependent. You can't deny the reality. We've had countless debates, speeches and questions in this Chamber, and no-one can deny here that bus services are inadequate, infrequent and non-existent across Wales. The lack of a decent bus service undermines the economy and makes it more difficult for people all across the board to access jobs and essential services. The number of local bus journeys was falling before the pandemic, thanks to years of inadequate financial support from, sadly, the Welsh Government, and they still haven't returned to pre-COVID levels. Many bus services have not resumed since the pandemic, leaving residents isolated within their communities. After numerous debates, questions and speeches heard here in the Senedd, I really do welcome the fact that the Welsh Government has finally recognised the importance of bus services after years of chronic underfunding.
I do look forward to seeing detailed proposals going forward to support bus services in their forthcoming legislation, and I'm keen to see how the Welsh Government will help rural areas afford eco-friendly buses, moving forward. We really do need to address the shortage of bus drivers who have left the sector for higher pay elsewhere, and rather than getting into a situation, as we see with GPs, we need to work on this now rather than later. Improvement in the pay and conditions of lorry drivers has resulted in many bus drivers leaving their jobs, causing what's been called the most challenging resourcing position that the bus industry has ever seen. It's lovely that we all talk the talk, but we now need to walk the walk when it comes to buses.
Recommendation 23 calls on Transport for Wales to provide an update on the latest position on metro costs. The metro project is a key component in the Welsh Government's strategy to encourage people off the road to ultimately use public transport. In February 2021, the chief executive of Transport for Wales said that the completion of the south Wales metro project would be delayed by months—and not years—as a result of the pandemic, with the completion date remaining as 2023.
In May last year, TfW said that the cost of the metro project was likely to be significantly over its £734 million budget, with the overspend likely to run into tens of millions of pounds—that’s tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money. Completion of the project was put back to 2024, and last November, further delays were confirmed to the upgrade, with the majority of work forecast to finish in 2024, but with no date for full completion of the project being given, which is concerning for me and many people, I’m sure. One of the reasons given for this further delay was COVID, which TfW had previously said would not cause delays beyond 2023. So, once again, I repeat my call for a statement from the Deputy Minister to advise when work on the south Wales metro will be finally completed. And, what is the latest estimate of the total cost of the Welsh Government’s flagship project to get people off the road and to use public transport?
Recommendation 25 calls for TfW to provide an update on the integrated ticketing pilot and explain what are the next steps. One of my first acts, after being elected to the Senedd, was to call for an all-Wales travel card to allow seamless journeys across the whole of Wales, just like one card—similar to what all of you have probably seen—as the Oyster card is in London. To his credit, and I must give him credit for this, the First Minister did respond with optimism and said that it was an idea worth exploring and really committed to exploring the possibility of introducing such a card for the people of Wales.
In October last year, in a reply to a written question, asking for an update on these plans, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change said and I quote,
'We continue to work with Transport for Wales to explore options for integrated ticketing'.
So, going forward, let me put my feelings on the record here today when I say that I’m deeply disappointed at the lack of progress on this issue, as Transport for Wales put up a page on their website saying that the travel card would be coming soon, then all of a sudden removed it. I would like to ask for regular updates in this Senedd on delivering an all-Wales travel card as it will be the foundation of a strong and sustainable public transport network here in Wales for the people of Wales, because if we don’t work on it now, I really don’t feel that we will ever achieve a strong bus and rail network here for the people of Wales.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the committee and to the clerking team of the committee for producing this report. Of course, the test that I will establish for Government policy is how it affects the people of Blaenau Gwent, because the exchange that I enjoyed at least—I don't know if anybody else did—with Jenny Rathbone earlier was about the difference in experience between those in the centre of Cardiff and those who live in the heads of the Valleys. And I think it's an important differential to make, because what stood out for me in the report was the emphasis on behavioural change, and the Chair emphasised that in his introduction. And behavioural change will only happen if there are viable alternatives to using the car. And all too often for my constituency—the people I represent—those alternatives do not exist.
And this, Deputy Minister, is where the test for the Government lies, because I've spent too long, possibly, in this Chamber listening to ministerial speeches, and I feel frankly let down by some of those speeches. Because, I heard the contributions—which the Deputy Minister will, no doubt, make this afternoon—on how the Welsh Government want us to move from car to bus or to rail or to whatever. And then, of course, I see them building a grand hospital—and I very much support the building of the Grange University Hospital in Cwmbran—we had a bus every hour to Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny; no bus at all to the Grange. And it was promised for five years by Ministers in this place that those services would exist. The current Minister has promised that he will investigate it, but today, those services simply don't exist.So, it isn't good enough for the Government to say that it wants the people to do all of this and then it makes it more difficult for the people to actually use those services. And those services all too often don't exist, and that isn't fair and it isn't right.
And, you know, one of my great regrets in this place—. Members may not believe this, but I was silent when it happened, and I should've opened my mouth. When the south-east Wales—I can't remember the correct name—transport executive was abolished by a previous Minister, it took away all the ability of local government and others to co-ordinate and to plan transport. Now, I understand, of course, that this is being reintroduced through corporate joint committees—and we understand now that the Conservatives all of a sudden support these things, and I welcome their conversions—but we need this level of co-ordination because—. I met a constituent in an advice surgery in Cwm last year, and he was explaining to me that, for him to get to the Grange, he would have to go via Brynmawr. Now, anybody who knows the geography of the south Wales Valleys knows that you don't tend to travel south by travelling north. And it is unfair to put vulnerable people in this position. We know—and we've explored this on many occasions in this place—that it was the Thatcher reforms that destroyed the bus industry. We understand that. But we've also had responsibility in this place for over 20 years, and we need to ensure that we are demonstrating that that actually means something. And I want the Deputy Minister, in responding to this debate, to explain how behavioural change happens alongside equality, so that my constituents have the same opportunity as the constituents represented by Jenny Rathbone. And I'll give way.

Jenny Rathbone AC: On this issue of equality, I just wondered if you'd picked up, in the report, the suggestion by Professor Barry that, perhaps we ought to get older people, who currently don't pay at all, to pay £1, and that would then give us more money to perhaps lower the fares of other people, particularly younger people under 25. Now, I know this is the holy grail, but there is very little extra money in the system, and we might be able to encourage some people to pay—

Alun Davies AC: Jenny, you might find this surprising, but I'm celebrating my fifty-ninth birthday next month, so my thinking is developing on the bus pass, shall we say, and perhaps I should declare an interest in it. But, look—

Jenny Rathbone AC: Would you be prepared to pay £1?

Alun Davies AC: Yes, I would be prepared to pay £1. But, I also think that perhaps we should be making public transport free, or £1 flat rate for everyone, wherever they're travelling to, at any time. I actually think that we need to think about investing in public transport and not just putting up barriers to public transport.
So, I don't have the sacred cows that all too often we parade in this Chamber, and I would be prepared to look at any of those different examples of how we encourage investment in the system. But, for me, the purpose is to make public transport easier to use. And, if that means a flat rate of £1 for everyone, so be it. But I would like to ensure that we don't have the chaos of ticketing that we have at the moment. And it's a standing regret for me—. And I hear what the Members opposite are saying, and it is good to see the leader of the opposition in the Chamber for this debate. What I would say to them, in all seriousness, is that, until you devolve responsibility for rail infrastructure to this place, there is no chance at all of any of the ambitions that Natasha Asghar has outlined this afternoon actually being achieved, because the money simply isn't in the system. Welsh taxpayers are being robbed day after day after day. The decisions taken over HS2 are appalling—absolutely appalling—and Conservatives should stand up, be counted and call that out—

Alun, you need to conclude now, please.

Alun Davies AC: —in the same way as we do elsewhere. So, I'm grateful for your indulgence, Deputy Presiding Officer.
Minister, in replying to this debate, I want to see the equality of treatment for people up and down the country, and I want you to pass the Blaenau Gwent test. I want you to pass it with flying colours, and I want to ensure that we have the investment in the buses, the rail, and the integration of transport services that mean that my constituents have the same opportunities to use public transport as Jenny's constituents, and we promise, then, that we won't plug up your car parks in the centre of Cardiff, Jenny. Thank you very much.

Heledd Fychan AS: May I echo my thanks to the committee for all of this work on this vitally important issue. And, similarly, I agree with a number of the points that Alun Davies made. This is an issue of equality, and I was going to raise similar points in terms of residents ofSouth Wales Central. If you think about how—. I represent the Cardiff area, where it's far easier to change your practice; you can choose not to have a car, because of alternative methods of transport. If you move towards Pontypridd and further into the Valleys, and Vikki referred to those areas—. Well, that's all within my region, and the complaints that I hear on a daily basis from people where they don't have alternative modes of transport, they don't have a car, so, when the bus or the train isn't there, isn't running, then they are entirely stuck in their homes—. That means that they lose opportunities in terms of employment, they lose opportunities to access medical appointments, which are very difficult to get these days, but also in terms of getting their children to school on time or picking up children who are poorly from school. There's huge inequality at the moment. When we talk about changes of practices or routines, a number of people in my region do use the bus or the train because that's the only option available to them, but the problem and the complaints that we hear now are that the trains aren't running. We know about the upgrade with regard to the metro, which is very much to be welcomed, but the thing is that those buses don't turn up if the trains don't run, and often buses are cancelled too.
I was very pleased to see recommendation 8 specifically, because we do know that there is a crisis in recruitment. We have to remember then about the statistics and the people behind those statistics. As I've been a councillor, a number of people in Pontypridd still have my phone number, and I receive a text every time that one bus at 16:29 in the afternoon—it's the last bus that goes up the hill in Pontypridd—doesn't run. I receive a text almost every day that that service isn't running, and I hear time and time again about the same old services. So, this is a problem for people, and we're not just talking about people in rural areas. We know about the huge problem there, but you can live in a town such as Pontypridd, you can see the shops, you can see all of the things that are going on, but you can't get there if you don't have a car and if you're not able to walk. And then we think about equality issues, because even if you do have that bus pass, even if you can afford it, if the service isn't available, then it's a fact that people are stuck in their homes.
One of the concerns that are raised with me when I talk to young people in my region is their lack of confidence in terms of taking the bus or the train, because a number of them haven't had an opportunity to do that at all because of the pandemic, to be able to make that journey without their parents for the first time, and there are a number of schemes now where youth workers are having to take children and young people for the first time on a bus and show them how the system works, almost holding their hand through that process. So, one of the things that I was going to ask—. If we are going to change our practices, then starting with young people is going to be vitally important. So, with regard to that practical support, which can be very costly, how are we going to use the new curriculum, for example, to be promoting using public transport and normalising that use of public transport? Because, clearly, there's a number of steps here with regard to transforming the system for the future, but it's vitally important that we support people through that process too, because, in nations where public transport is normalised, people know how it works.
But there are more fundamental issues to bear in mind here too. I think that the issue of cost is very important. We're hearing in other committees at the moment about children and young people not getting to school if they aren't within the catchment area of being able to access a free bus ticket to school. So, cost is an issue, and we need to look at that range of issues. But I would hope that the Deputy Minister would agree with me that we shouldn't see a situation where a young person is being refused access to a bus that is taking them to school because they don't have the money to pay for the fare. I would hope that we could look at measures in terms of anti-poverty measures and the cost-of-living crisis to deal with the current crisis in terms of transport costs, which is preventing people from getting to school. I'll let Sioned Williams come in.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Heledd. Would you agree that one of the cohorts of young people very much affected by the cost of living and the high cost of transport is students? They very often have to live in cities. We know that they sometimes have to live on the outskirts of cities, because rental costs are so high in city centres, and they've told me they're having to travel in then for their courses and, as we heard from Jenny, they are a group of young people who can't get reduced cost transport. So, should they too be a priority?

Heledd Fychan AS: Certainly, and, when I talk about young people, I'm not just talking about those in schools; it extends to cover that group too. And I would ask the Deputy Minister to reflect on that too. I see that time is against me, but, similar to Alun Davies, it's a matter of equality and how we're going to ensure, just in terms of the services that are meant to be there now, that they're running—that's one of the things, without mentioning extending services for the future. Thank you.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you. I welcome the committee report. Public transport is a lifeline for many, ensuring that nobody is left behind. It's a social issue, as well as maintaining access to work. I know in rural areas the bus journey for regular passengers is where they enjoy a social chat with each other and the driver, and we've heard at the culture and sports committee that public transport is essential to ensure fair access to swimming pools and sports clubs. Access to medical appointments is one of the biggest concerns for residents.
But running bus transport is expensive. It needs to integrate with school transport to help subsidise the journeys for the rest of the day, and I'm aware that the Learner Travel Measure (Wales) 2008 is being reviewed, but we need to understand the cost and resource issue. At the Local Government and Housing Committee last week, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association spoke about the daily issue of ensuring there are enough operators to fulfil school transport contracts and make sure no child is left behind. There's been a 40 per cent price increase, creating a massive budget pressure. I'm still a bit concerned that CJCs will be able to deliver transport, which is hugely complex. One local authority had 450 contracts, 350 are school, and officers have good daily communication with operators, helping them to maintain services when they may be about to collapse, or asking them to step in last minute when needed. Accountability is important, ensuring that no child or vulnerable adult is left behind.
Procurement of buses is expensive as well. They vary from £350,000 to £450,000 for one bus, and a service can cost between £350,000 to £700,000 to run. If journeys are not commercial, they stop, and that's when councils have stepped in with subsidies, but three councils have already withdrawn subsidies over the last few years during austerity, and I'm aware that many more have put them on the table this year as cost savings. So, that will need to be considered. If Welsh Government, through Transport for Wales, could help with procurement, using scale of purchase, it could help with sustainability for operators and local authorities or CJCs commissioning services. And I know that's something that the Deputy Minister is maybe looking at.
Residents like a scheduled bus service, but many are having to accept change, and the Fflecsi bus service, which is operating in north Wales, is being welcomed and it seems to be working really well once residents and passengers accept change. Reliability and clear timetabling is important to encourage people to use bus transport and to have faith in them. One bad experience can put them off altogether. And one bus timetable change by an operator can mean 150 bus stops then have to be updated, which is really labour intensive and forced on local authorities who do not have resources. So, franchising, going forward, will be really helpful with that, because they can commission services for a longer time, where operators won't change and cut them in-year. So, that will be really welcome. A friendly, helpful bus driver and rail platform assistant is invaluable and makes all the difference in people having confidence to use public transport, especially if they have physical or mental difficulties, and that was discussed this morning on the radio as well.
Recruitment and retention of drivers is an issue. Arriva Wales pay drivers less in Wales, under their contract, which is unfair and causes an issue, because they cross the border and pass colleagues on a daily basis, and it's something unions are trying to sort out. If local authorities are able to get an operator's licence, which is something that some have looked at in the past, then their street scene driver operatives could maybe get a licence and training to become bus drivers and fill in gaps left behind by operators if we're going to look for that franchising model with local authorities stepping in as well. There's still an overcrowding issue on north Wales trains, but I'm pleased to see the mark 4 back on the service. Fantastic. They've been refurbished. And more rail services have been promised.
The current rail workers' strikes are not just about wages, but ensuring that lines and signals are maintained by experienced, qualified operatives, and that there are guards on trains and adequate platform staff to ensure the safety of all passengers, and that's why I support the strikes and the negotiations that are taking place.
Integrated fares that can be used across operators are also important, as well as maintaining cross-border transport, as we have an open border. And I really welcome the 1Bws ticket—I think it was last year that was used as a model, and it was really welcomed—which can be used across different operators. The railway network needs to be better funded. We need this £5 billion from HS2. The rail network has never been self-funded, ever since it was developed, because when railway lines were built they competed with each other right from the beginning and didn't cover the whole area.
I know Welsh Government wants to introduce fairer fares. It would be great to have a universal one-price ticket; I think you might have to look at this £1 to subsidise others. But I understand we need to get the network in place first, and I welcome all the commitment from Welsh Government and the Deputy Minister and all his efforts in trying to resolve this, along with Transport for Wales. Thank you.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to all colleagues for a stimulating debate. I think there is common cause, again, in this Chamber, for improving the reality of public transport and for achieving our shared aspiration of modal shift to tackle not just the climate crisis but also social justice. It's a little frustrating, and I'm aware of the irony, for me to hear this afternoon the list of issues Members raised that I agree with and have for many years been making myself, and now find myself in the position of trying to operationalise the challenge into solutions, and these things are all clearly easier said than done.
We face a number of pressures at the moment. We have rising costs—so, every scheme we operate is costing more to deliver—and we have reducing funding, which is very frustrating, at a time when, clearly, the public transport sector, both rail and bus, has not recovered from the pandemic. So, it is costing more to run services. And we have saved the private bus industry from bankruptcy continually through the pandemic, through our bus emergency support scheme. That now faces renewal in the coming months, and we have less money. I really do worry about the impact the funding is going to have in shrinking our bus network. And as Members have pointed out, the bus industry is having problems of its own recruiting and retaining bus drivers, as well as with rising fuel costs, and my concern is that these services are often not operating already, and Sioned Williams has given us a good example in Pontypridd—forgive me, it was Heledd Fychan that gave us the example in Pontypridd—of buses not turning up. So, quite clearly, bus companies are struggling to maintain their current timetable, and my worry is that, as we have to pare back the bus emergency scheme, because we're coming out of the pandemic and the funding just isn't available, they will simply blame us for shrinking the bus network when of course it's us that saved the bus network in the first place. This, I think, goes to the heart of the failures of the privatised model that we have.
Alun Davies raised again the excellent example of the problem of the Grange hospital, where a hospital was built in the first place without public transport being thought of. Here, we have the disconnect between different services, where transport often isn't thought about by education or health providers until too late. And he talks about the specific—[Interruption.] Can I just answer the point first? He makes the specific point of a bus service not being available from Blaenau Gwent to the Grange, and that again is the cause of much frustration. We've discussed it a number of times, and the truth of the matter is we have tried to put in place a service to go from his constituency to the Grange, but we've been frustrated by the way the market works. If there is a publicly funded bus service in place that competes with a commercially run service, the operators are able to challenge us legally, and that is what has happened in this case. We've tried to put the service in place. A provider that provides a very small part of the route has challenged us on that, and as a result there is paralysis and it's Alun Davies's constituents who are suffering. It's not good enough, and it's extremely frustrating that the legal framework stops us providing an integrated public transport service, as it does on Natasha Asghar's much cited single ticket, as she well knows, or certainly ought to. The way that the current legal system is set up makes it impossible to do that, and that's why we are looking to reform the system through the bus Bill, and I welcome the support she has given consistently to a bus Bill, and I look forward to trying to shape that on a cross-party basis to achieve our shared ambition. So, there are some fundamental problems that we have plans and are working hard to address around the legal framework for the bus industry.
I though the exchange between Jenny Rathbone and Alun Davies was a very useful one, and I think this Chamber is at its best when people put down their speeches and respond to the debate, which is what I'm going to try and do this afternoon, because the points they both made were absolutely on point. Jenny Rathbone is right: we do need to discourage people from taking journeys into city centres when there are existing alternatives available, and we want to create better alternatives. And hats off to Cardiff Council for having the courage to develop a scheme of congestion charging, which they will hypothecate to a so-called crossrail project in Cardiff to improve metro public transport services in Cardiff. That's the right thing to do. It's politically challenging, but it's the right thing to do and we're working with them.
Alun Davies is also right that the services for his constituents currently are sometimes not there, and they're certainly not good enough to provide people with a realistic alternative. I, myself, have the novelty of having given up my second car, and I'm trying to get around by electric bike and train. And I can tell you it's tricky. It is frustrating, it is often inconvenient, and that is, I'm afraid, the reality—not for all journeys; for some journeys it's brilliant. But there'll be times with an unplanned journey, or there will be times when the trains don't turn up because of staff shortages, because of the weather, for all sorts of legitimate reasons, where, as a passenger, it is very frustrating. And unless we change that reality, we're never going to hit our modal shift target and we're never going to hit our climate change target. I see Alun Davies wants to intervene, I'd be happy for him to.

Alun Davies AC: I'm always grateful for the Minister's candour. It's a refreshing candour, and we all appreciate it. Let me say one thing, and I admire your fortitude with an electric bike. If you lived in Tredegar this morning, you wouldn't have enjoyed it. But, in terms of the issue around Cardiff, because it is an important issue, it's profoundly unfair that my constituents and constituents from elsewhere in the Valleys, whom Cardiff relies upon in terms of retail and professional employment and the rest of it, would be asked to pay a congestion charge that pays for improvements in Cardiff and not for improvements in the Valleys and elsewhere. That is profoundly unfair. And, for people like me, I would never, ever be persuaded to support that. So, we need to find something that is fair and equitable for everyone who uses this transport system.

Lee Waters AC: Well, Alun Davies challenged me to pass the Blaenau Gwent test earlier, and I can tell him that there's also an Alun Davies test, which is being applied to the congestion charge, because Julie James and I have been having active conversations with Cardiff about the design of the congestion charge, and the points that he makes are absolutely fair and need to be built into the design of the system. But I would say that even his constituents, coming into Cardiff, would benefit from less congestion in Cardiff. So, it does benefit everybody, not just—. I think this is a slight false divide. I'd hate to create a culture war between Cardiff and the Valleys. But the thrust of his point is a fair one, and it is being designed into the system. I hope that gives him some reassurance.
A number of other points were made, Dirprwy Lywydd. The core of the issue is, as a country, across the UK, we have not been putting the investment into public transport over a considerable time for us to be able to match the sort of services we get when we go to the continent. And that's the nub of the problem. And we're now facing the difficulty of trying to redistribute a too-small slice of public spending to meet the demands of a much better service, which we require both to address transport poverty, as both Llyr Huws Gruffydd and Delyth Jewell mentioned, which I think is absolutely right, and the bus reforms are as much about social justice as they are about climate justice. But, without that funding, then we are not able to do all of the things that we want to do.
The new corporate joint committee structure will help, the regional collaboration will help, but, ultimately, we need to have the money there to fund the services, and that is I think something all of us collectively are going to have to face up to. We are putting in the changes to the wiring that will improve the rail service, improve the bus service, improve the active travel service, to put in disincentives as well as to reallocate funding away from new road-building schemes, and we hope to bring forward the results of the roads review shortly. So, we are doing a great deal, but we are not doing as much as we would all want us to do because simply we do not have the money to do it. Diolch.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Can I thank everybody who has taken part in that very stimulating and very interesting debate? In fact, it was one of the best I've had the privilege of taking part in for a while here. Obviously, time means I can't repeat everything that everybody said, you'll be glad to hear, but I will pick out a few pertinent points.
The Minister came back to the roads review right at the end, which was one of the first things mentioned in this debate. Clearly, we're hoping that savings from any projects that don't go ahead will be utilised for sustainable travel, and it's something particularly the committee is keen to see, and that would help potentially address some of the issues around funding, albeit not enough in terms of the challenge that the Government does face.
References as well to rural services: we mustn't forget that modal shift in rural communities would look very different to modal shift in urban communities, and maybe that needs to be better reflected in more granular targets, for example, around some of these issues, but that's certainly something that we're all very aware of.
Yes, Wales is poorly served by the rail ecosystem, and Professor Mark Barry was making very, very valuable contributions to our work on the HS2 travesty. Coming back to money again, I think, is it the equivalent of £2 million a week for the next 20 years that we're contributing? So, clearly, there's a lot to be said about that.
Just to correct one thing about the cost of driving a car: I just checked the report as you were speaking. I think you said £250; it's near a 250 per cent increase. So, it's a 227 per cent increase by 2050. Without any further interventions, and investment in bus and coach, it's the 227 per cent increase by 2050 in order to drive the scale of modal shift needed in order to support net zero. But the carrot and stick was something that came through very clearly in much of the evidence that we received; you need to dangle the carrot, but you do need the stick as well in order to make that shift happen.
There were a number of references to the social injustices around access to services, and obviously reflecting different statistics around access to cars and dependency by particularly disabled people: 25 per cent depend on public transport. 'More needs to be done' was one call. Well, we've all said that, haven't we, in different ways? Even the Minister acknowledges that. Much is happening, I would say, as Chair. There's much being planned, there's much work in progress. I think the Minister himself said the challenge now is to operationalise—much of this is to actually start delivering.
Issues around the south Wales metro; when will that be completed? Well, spare a thought for the north Wales metro, which is on a very different trajectory as well, I would imagine, but is on the list of things to do, which is getting longer by the day.
Subsidised tickets, of course, is very important, but no good if there isn't a bus in the first place. So, that's clearly something that goes hand in hand. The recruitment of drivers is something that the committee touched on and a number of Members touched on, I think. And stories about buses not turning up; the point was made by a number of people in different ways. It undermines people's confidence in using buses. If you can't depend on it, then you're not going to use it in future. And particularly, encouraging students and young people to use buses; that's when you can establish a habit of a lifetime, and if you just find those people being pushed away in different ways, then obviously, that isn't going to happen, is it?
So, the Government did save the bus sector from bankruptcy during COVID, and we mustn't forget that. There are huge failures coming from the fact that it is a privatised service; the legal framework is mitigating against the kind of service that we want to see. These are—as the Minister said—fundamental problems that need to be addressed. But as we heard, there is common cause in the Chamber here today about addressing those challenges, and the committee, of course, stands ready to play our part as well in that process, to get us—in terms of bus and rail services in Wales—to where we need to be. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Offshore renewable energy

Item 6 this afternoon is the Welsh Conservatives debate on offshore renewable energy. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the motion.

Motion NDM8183 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Believes that utilising Welsh coastal waters will help to deliver a revolution in green, renewable energy.
2. Notes that an estimated 10,000 green jobs and wider benefits can be created.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to support the development of offshore renewable energies in Wales, ensuring the delivery of a sufficiently skilled workforce and enhanced manufacturing capacity.

Motion moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm very proud as a Welsh Conservative to be opening this debate on offshore renewable energy. Electricity consumption in Wales is expected to surge by up to 300 per cent by 2050, due to increased demand by the transport and heat sectors. The Welsh Government has to take accountability to ensure that we have sufficient capacity to meet this demand. It is vital that Wales does not miss out on renewable opportunities and their subsequent benefits to the community, including employment opportunities, and a boost to our economy.
The case for investment in offshore wind is clear: the UK is already viewed as a world leader in offshore wind. In 2020, there were 35 offshore windfarms off the coast of Great Britain, encompassing almost 2,200 wind turbines. Contributing 13 per cent of the UK's electricity needs, these offshore windfarms produced 40.7 TWh. Offshore windfarms are also viewed as more efficient than their on-land counterparts. This is primarily due to the higher wind speeds experienced across the sea and a lack of physical obstructions by natural or man-made structures. This subsequently results in the seas providing more space for offshore windfarms to be positioned, as well as being further away from local populations. Offshore renewables can contribute a significant amount to Wales's economy, and floating offshore wind is said to have contributed £2.2 million to the Welsh economy in recent years.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'm really delighted that rights have been granted for the Erebus project, which could create subsequent projects of approximately 300 MW in the Celtic sea. The project will initially focus on a 100 MW demonstration project, which is predicted to power over 93,000 homes per year, and this would save 151,000 tonnes of carbon emissions per year.
Of course, I'm also pleased that the proposed tidal lagoon off the Denbighshire coast received council approval. This project would see an estimated 22,000 jobs created, including between 6,000 and 7,000 at the construction phase. The tidal lagoon, which would have the capacity to generate 5—I can never say this—TWh in a year, could power up to 1 million homes. Tidal lagoons and barrages are also able to assist in flood prevention for coastal communities, so that means that investments we make now will produce savings over the long term.
Offshore renewables also have the potential to generate thousands of green jobs in Wales. It has oft been said there should never be a choice between supporting the economy and protecting the environment. Here is the perfect opportunity now to do both.
The Wales national marine plan states the Welsh Government would support further commercial deployment of offshore wind technologies. But I'm afraid, Minister, words have to be backed by action: 2020 saw the lowest annual deployment rate of new renewable capacity since 2010, with just 65 MW being commissioned. This is disproportionately low compared with the peak seen in 2015, when 1,019 MW were commissioned. Offshore wind has the second lowest number of projects in Wales, with just three. In comparison, onshore wind has 751 projects. Despite this, offshore wind has the capacity to generate 726 MW of electricity, behind only onshore wind and solar photovoltaics. So, this is particularly disconcerting since the Welsh Government recently applauded itself for being an early adopter of offshore wind.
As shadow Minister for climate change, it is very important to ensure that these projects also protect local wildlife and biodiversity. Offshore wind can positively influence biodiversity within the world seas. So, to ensure this, we should develop a strategy for reversing sea bird decline and review it at least once in every Senedd. The Minister is very aware of how I want to ensure that we do have a strategic marine spatial plan in order that there are certain areas where renewable energy producers can go and other areas where, no, those would be left for biodiversity and conservation projects.
We need to see a plan to see offshore windfarms also acting as artificial reefs, attracting more marine life than natural reefs, by functioning as fish accumulation devices. Local fishermen—. In fact, one of our main fishermen in Conwy is desperate to get involved with companies providing offshore wind near my constituency, but trying to get those talks under way, because there is the prospect of wrapping mussel ropes around the bases of wind turbines, so that way you can have both—you can actually have your marine conservation and biodiversity, but at the same time, working together in terms of renewable energy, developing a strategy for sustainable seafood harvesting from within the areas of windfarms.
So how do we ensure that these projects come to fruition and that more like them are approved in a timely fashion? We need, our renewable energy providers need, a clear and responsive framework from the Welsh Government. Last May, the Senedd unanimously accepted our legislative proposal for marine planning in Wales. This would create a duty for the Welsh Government to facilitate the creation of a national marine development plan and establish strategic resource areas for marine energy. As Welsh Conservatives, we would invest £150 million in a Wales marine energy investment fund. We would also fund a Welsh tidal feasibility study to accelerate the delivery of tidal power projects around Wales and provide open-source data for developers.
The renewable energy targets set in 2017 include generating 70 per cent of electricity consumption from renewables by 2030, and to have 1 GW of renewables owned locally by 2030. If the Welsh Government doesn’t get behind more offshore renewable projects, these targets will be virtually impossible to meet. Only last week, Minister, you were talking about having come back from COP15, and some of the fantastic ideas that you picked up whilst out there. We all agreed, cross-party, that maybe you would come back to the Chamber at some time and talk with us about what ideas you picked up from there. So, without further ado, I’ll say my bit. I know we’ve got some really interesting contributions from my own group, but also, I hope, from other Members in this Chamber. Diolch.

Delyth Jewell AC: I genuinely welcome this debate. The United Kingdom, as we’ve already heard, is among the world leaders with regard the potential of our renewable offshore energy sector. I’m sure that the word ‘potential’ will be mentioned several times in this debate, and Wales has the potential to be a giant in this sector. As things stand, the potential of this sector is being realised in only a handful of countries. In 2021, over 99.5 per cent of new offshore wind capacity was installed in just five countries, namely China, Denmark, Vietnam, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom.
We must remember, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the countries that gain a head start in this sector, and invest early, will be at an advantage in establishing supply chains and expertise in an industry that will, without a shadow of a doubt, grow and develop. The Global Wind Energy Council forecasts that there will be a 57-fold increase in international capacity by 2050. Experts expect an increase in America, South Korea and Taiwan, and by developing expertise here in Wales we could be part of that story. The potential is stratospheric in some ways. In the Celtic sea alone, the assessments of additional capacity stand at around 20 GW.
However, things must change before we can benefit from the opportunities that exist. The necessary infrastructure isn’t here in Wales. We need to develop our ports to allow sufficient space, capacity and depth for FLOW platforms. The Welsh Government and Westminster Government must help developers, ports and relevant authorities to give them the confidence to invest.
The state of grid connectivity and storage in Wales is also a problem—it’s insufficient. We must tackle the problems that face our grid. Again, there’s a need to invest in this area, and this includes green hydrogen and more efficient cabling. Of course, this expansion will mean nothing for Wales unless we can benefit from it. We need Crown Estate powers to fulfil this potential, and I would reiterate my party’s stance that these powers should be devolved. Responsibility for the Crown Estate was devolved to Scotland in 2017, but the Treasury in Westminster retains these powers in Wales. Well, they still benefitfrom the powers, of course, and the royal family does as well.
Finally, we must enhance green skills. I know that important work is being done in this area; Climate Cymru is holding a round-table event titled ‘Good Green Jobs for All’ on 16 February, and it involves representatives from TUC Cymru, Tata Steel, Airbus and the Wales Development Bank, and several others. We need an open mind and ambition to ensure that the workforce can derive maximum benefit from these exciting opportunities. Wales needs to be in the vanguard on this. We've already heard from Janet Finch Saunders that we need to make sure that we keep an eye on the climate emergency and nature emergency in the context of this issue. We need to ensure that energy developments do not negatively impact biodiversity, so, of course, we must be reasonable and sensitive in deciding where these developments happen, and how they happen.
But, to conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, people talk about the green goldrush that is happening off Wales’s shores, but until we have the required investment and powers, Wales will continue to be a bystander. Wales’s resources must benefit Wales’s people. We need far-reaching change to enable this to happen.

Paul Davies AC: It gives me great pleasure to take part in this afternoon's debate. As the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire, I've been very privileged to be at the forefront of discussions surrounding offshore renewable projects, and I'm acutely aware of just how important these projects are in meeting our energy needs for the future, as well as the huge economic benefits these developments can provide.I will be focusing my contribution today on floating offshore wind, but I know there are significant opportunities available to Wales in terms of tidal power and other renewable energy sources as well.
The Welsh Government faces a huge challenge in meeting its net-zero target and ensuring energy security, which means that developing home-grown clean energy must be an immediate priority. Floating offshore wind, for example, has the capacity to provide clean energy and also drive regional development and create supply chain opportunities. The UK Government announced its ambition to deliver up to 50 GW of offshore wind by 2030, including up to 5 GW of floating wind, with further expansion through the 2030s and beyond. As Members will know, the UK already has the largest floating windfarm in the world in Kincardine in the north sea, and this is a great example of the positive benefits of floating offshore wind to the UK. Of course, now more than ever, it's vital that Governments across the UK and at all levels are working collaboratively in order for Wales to benefit from this technology.
In order for Wales to fully realise the benefits of offshore floating wind, as Delyth Jewell said, it's crucial that there is significant investment in our ports, and FLOWMIS, the floating offshore wind manufacturing investment scheme, launched by the UK Government next year, is an important step forward. Details are still being developed around this funding, and I sincerely hope to see ports in the Celtic sea receiving support to upgrade their infrastructure and manufacturing capability. We also need to see support and investment from the Welsh Government too. Indeed, perhaps in responding to this debate, the Minister will tell us how the Welsh Government is investing in Welsh port infrastructure, and confirm that the Welsh Government's draft budget does prioritise port development by allocating funding to upgrade their existing infrastructure.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take an intervention?

Paul Davies AC: Yes, I'm more than happy to take an intervention.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: To me, you won't be surprised to hear, making sure that Holyhead is the key port for the next generation of offshore wind in the Irish sea is very, very important. The free port bid developed by Ynys Môn and Stena for the north of Wales could be key in that. I'm sure the Member would be glad that the campaign was successful to get a level playing field in terms of funding for free ports in Wales, but does he also agree that the best way to bring synergy would be actually to have two free ports—north-west and south-west—two successful bids to drive forward the kind of change he wants?

Paul Davies AC: You wouldn't be surprised to hear me say that, yes, I would agree with you on that basis, because I'd like to see a Celtic free port, and, of course, I would also support your endeavours as well and your MP Virginia Crosbie's endeavours to make sure that there's a free port also in Holyhead.
One of the important levers to get floating offshore wind into Wales is, of course, free ports, as I've just been discussing. Henrik Pedersen, the chief executive officer of Associated British Ports, which owns a number of other ports in Wales and around the UK, recently made it clear to the Welsh Affairs Committee that either we bring these developments into Wales, or it's done in Spain, France or elsewhere, and it's really as simple as that. If we don't take and nurture these developments, then other countries will. Of course, it would be remiss of me not to again mention the Celtic free port bid, given that the bid would help secure economic benefits in my constituency, and right along the south Wales coast. I appreciate, as has already been mentioned, that there are other free port bids that have also been submitted. Nevertheless, if successful, the Celtic free port would naturally support the regeneration of communities in west Wales by attracting new businesses, jobs and investment, which would in turn boost the Welsh economy. Given the transformational impact it would have in south-west Wales, I sincerely hope we'll hear some positive news on this front in the very near future.
Members here are aware of the positive benefits of floating offshore wind and, moving forward, we need to increase grid capacity and make new grid connections available too. We know that the planning and consenting processes are already quite slow and can be difficult, and we also cannot underestimate the scale of the task facing Natural Resources Wales and the need for it to be fully resourced. Evidence from Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners to the Welsh Affairs Committee noted the ongoing discussion between the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales to resolve resourcing issues, particularly for their offshore renewable energy programme. They said that it was critical for consenting bodies to be appropriately resourced to be able to meet the demands that the acceleration of floating offshore wind projects will have, and they are absolutely right. Indeed, in the discussions that I've had with developers only this week, the overwhelming message was that the consenting processes in Wales are far too long and that could be really detrimental to the development of projects. And so, while this is an exciting time for the floating offshore wind sector, there are still significant challenges too. Wales really does have an opportunity to be a global leader in offshore renewable energy, and whilst today I've focused on floating offshore wind, we know there are also opportunities in terms of tidal power and other renewable energy sources as well. So, I urge Members to support this motion.

And for the record, I should notify that the Celtic free port involves my constituency as well. Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Diolch. The impact of climate change is all too evident, and Wales is at the forefront of addressing the challenges of decarbonising energy generation, with policies and support for renewable energy. Plans for a publicly owned renewable energy developer ensure profits created in Wales will develop greater benefit for residents with profits reinvested in improving energy efficiency in homes in Wales and creating good-quality, home-grown, clean energy jobs, a stark contrast from the UK Government, which will continue to focus on fossil fuel extraction while failing to tackle the impact of rising energy costs on household budgets. The UK's political parties should be showing the world how to build a safe, secure and resilient net-zero energy system, using indigenous renewable energy sources, not misleading its population into believing that nuclear is needed to meet baseload power or the lights will go out.
The UK's offshore wind resources alone exceed net zero and foreseeable UK energy demand, and we could look at green hydrogen as a storage solution. Investment in the £12 million engineering centre of excellence at Coleg Llandrillo's Rhyl campus is further evidence of the Welsh Government's commitment to the renewable energy sector. The centre there will become a hub for delivering world-class education and training in engineering, with the latest specialised equipment, and will be a new institute for renewable energy technology, in partnership with RWE Renewables. A main feature of this will be a three-floor-high industrial-scale wind turbine servicing and maintenance hall, which is fantastic. It's brilliant we have this facility to provide local people in north Wales with the relevant skills to work on renewable projects in north Wales and beyond.
As the First Minister raised yesterday, the UK Government needs to invest in the national grid, which should be renationalised. It's currently not fit for purpose, with billions of profits creamed off for shareholders each year. That money should be reinvested into the grid to improve capacity, to allow for the hundreds of renewable projects currently on hold to go ahead. But what happens should the winds not blow and energy demands remain high? There were two periods in 2021 when the supply of wind energy collapsed for 10 days, forcing the national grid to buy electricity from Belgium, at the highest price Britain has ever paid to keep power flowing. Tidal lagoons, such as the north Wales tidal lagoon, and the Swansea lagoon, should be part of the energy mix to address these problems. The tide is totally reliable, as is the electricity it will generate.
This one project in north Wales could generate enough powerfor virtually every home in Wales, underpinning intermittent supplies of energy from wind and solar, and, unlike a nuclear power station, tidal lagoons are low technology and low cost. Given investment and support, the north Wales tidal lagoon could be up and running in 10 years—many years before a nuclear plant—with an operating life of over 120 years, and no challenging decommissioning residue. The coastal defence offered by the lagoon will protect millions of properties and infrastructure, benefiting generations to come, while mitigating the need for substantial coastal defence works by Welsh Government, who have already had to invest billions of pounds in it. It could provide a huge boost to the north Wales economy and its ability to meet the challenges of climate change and create thousands of jobs.
The initial investment in a tidal lagoon would, at first glance, seem high. However, given that the asset created has an ultra-long operating life—twice as long as a nuclear plant and four times that of a windfarm—any investment needed truly provides excellent value and return of capital when compared to other energy projects.I would like to note, however, the expected expansion of off-shore windfarms, and tidal energy across the world could have significant environmental impacts, and those need to be carefully understood and monitored. I attended an RSPB event showing sea birds having to cope with an accumulation of wind turbines, boats, and other structures at sea, so we need a co-ordinated marine spatial plan. I trust that Welsh Government understands these risks, and will treat the nature crisis that we seriously face while deciding the future of our renewable energy production. Thank you.

Altaf Hussain AS: Diolch, DirprwyLywydd. I would like to thank my colleague, Janet, for introducing this important debate.
In the midst of an energy crisis caused by Putin’s illegal war, and with dire warnings that 2023 will be the hottest on record as a result of climate change, it is right that we look to foment a green energy revolution in Wales. The war in Ukraine has vividly underlined the need for energy security, highlighting the ease with which a vile dictator can hold an entire region’s heating and lighting hostage. But, it has also shown us just how reliant we are as a nation upon fossil fuels—fossil fuels that predominately come from geopolitically unstable regions, and are contributing massively to climate change.
Wales has felt the effects of global warming in the past week, from widespread flooding and then just days later, snow as well as sub-zero temperatures. Unpredictable extreme weather events are now a frequent occurrence. We therefore have to urgently decarbonise our energy sector, not only for the sake of our bank balances, but for the future of our planet.We need a green revolution that has learnt the lessons of the past. My region has suffered from the previous Welsh Government’s disastrous energy policies, namely technical advice note 5 and the industrial scale onshore windfarms.On the coldest day of 2022, onshore wind met less than 1 per cent of our energy demands. More energy was produced by coal-fired stations. That’s the problem with onshore wind: until we have reliable energy storage, we can't depend upon these huge windfarms spread across the Swansea and Ogmore valleys.
But, there is an alternative: offshore wind and tidal power. South Wales West can reap the benefits of pioneering these renewable technologies. It's an exciting time for the region. Not only do we have the prospect of the Celtic free port, with Port Talbot playing a major role in the development of the Celtic sea floating offshore wind project, we also are likely to see the Blue Eden project come to fruition as part of the Swansea bay city deal. Blue Eden is a groundbreaking project proposed for Swansea's waterfront that will include a newly designed tidal lagoon, featuring state-of-the-art underwater turbines generating 320 MW of renewable energy from the 9.5 km structure. The £1.7 billion project is wholly privately funded and is being led by a Bridgend company, DST Innovations, who believe that the development will create over 2,500 permanent jobs and support a further 16,000 jobs across Wales and the UK. Blue Eden is not just a tidal lagoon. It will also feature a floating solar array and a massive onshore battery plant which will not only produce batteries for renewable energy projects but also store the energy produced by Blue Eden for later use. These are the technologies we should be backing: floating offshore wind; tidal lagoon; and grid-level battery storage. That way my constituents in South Wales West can reap the benefits in terms of jobs and cheaper energy, whereas previously only the wind farm developers prospered. I urge Members to support our motion today. Diolch yn fawr.

Sam Rowlands MS: I'm grateful to be able to speak in today's very important Welsh Conservative debate on offshore renewable energy, tabled in the name of my colleague, Darren Millar, and, of course, opened by Janet Finch-Saunders. And since becoming a Member of the Parliament here for North Wales, I've been a huge advocate of the fantastic benefits that offshore renewable energy contains, but also the fantastic natural resources, facilities, skills and unique opportunities that we have here in Wales, and I, of course, would argue that much of this being in the region of north Wales, having the fantastic opportunities up there. And in contributing to today's debate, I'd like to focus on three pertinent issues that I think are really important when assessing this offshore renewable energy opportunity, and as we've already heard this afternoon, there is, of course, Senedd and political support for seeing delivery of more greener technology and supporting our economy as well.
As point 1 of our motion states, by utilising our coastal waters, we will help to deliver a revolution in green, renewable energy, and as has already been outlined a moment ago by Janet Finch-Saunders, we're expecting to see, by 2050, that surge of 300 per cent in electricity consumption, so there is a very near and present need to see this green revolution take place. Whether it's wind, wave or tidal energy projects, they can all play a crucial role, of course, in delivering a green economy and moving away from our current reliance on oil and gas.
Of course, with this green revolution, it's not just the green credentials, but, of course, the economic benefits of offshore renewable energy. And as point 2 of our motion states today, it’s estimated that a further 10,000 green jobs could be created if this opportunity is fully and properly grasped. Many of these jobs, of course, are well paid, with long, successful careers, which is essential in terms of certainly supporting our young people staying in some of our more rural communities, having those important jobs. In addition to this, of course, offshore renewables can contribute a significant amount towards our wider economy and that all-important supply-chain opportunity that comes with it, and that would make such a difference in some of our industrial advanced technology heartlands in north Wales, such as in Deeside and Wrexham as well.
But for the benefits and opportunities of offshore renewable energy to be fully maximised and utilised, we need to see further work from the Welsh Government. As point 3 of our motion states, we're calling on the Welsh Government to support the development of offshore renewable energies in Wales, whilst ensuring the delivery of a sufficiently skilled workforce and enhanced manufacturing capacity. So, along with this, it's crucially important that we see a more friendly environment made for investment, along with the Welsh Government working more closely with organisations and technology such as TPGen24 and other tidal-power proposals, to ensure that we see offshore renewable energy opportunities maximised and invested in Wales.
I'd like to hear today from the Minister, in the response, how the Welsh Government plans to support renewable energy schemes more than it's doing so today, along with the plans for achieving that baseload electricity position, with the support, of course, of offshore renewables. Minister, I'd also be pleased to hear an update on the tidal lagoon challenge, because I've asked previously for an update on this, and when the next stage will be announced.
So, to conclude, it's clear from my side, that, more than ever, offshore renewable energy has fantastic opportunities to deliver a greener environment, to deliver successful and well-paid jobs. And with our unique opportunities, skills and facilities here in Wales, it's a great area that we can all get behind to deliver long-lasting benefits. We must ensure that more is done to ensure that these renewable energy projects are encouraged and supported, and any slowdown in renewable energy development, deployment and investment is reversed as quickly as possible.
I look forward to the rest of the debate, Deputy Presiding Officer, and call on Members from across the Chamber to support today's motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very glad to have the opportunity to respond to this motion today. I absolutely welcome the broad consensus that marine energy is a pillar of the economy in Wales and will become ever more so in the coming decades, and I very much associate myself with many of the comments made by Members in this debate. The Welsh Government supports the motion.
The Welsh Government's unwavering commitment to marine energy has been acknowledged by the sector. International companies invest in Wales, they say, for this reason, as well as the ability for them to bring together world-class teams of Welsh workers. Welsh manufacturers are winning repeat contracts for construction of marine energy devices, and are keen to see the Government continue to foster confidence and growth in this sector.
The Welsh Government has, with funding from the European Union, invested more than £100 million in more than a dozen marine energy projects across north, south and west Wales. Our £31 million investment in tidal energy technologies to be deployed within the Menter Môn Morlais demonstration zone includes support for Magallanes, Morlais's first berth holder to secure a contract for different support. These new opportunities sit alongside the 726 MW of generation across RWE's three offshore windfarms, already sustaining hundreds of jobs.
We are working with companies like these, new and established, as well as with other Governments and with sector bodies, through partnerships like the Celtic sea cluster, to realise, for the immediate and longer term, economic opportunities. This includes, but is not limited to, supporting the further growth of the skills base in Wales, and strengthening our infrastructure to support the expansion of manufacturing, as is called for in the motion. Our industrial policies are only part of our focus on marine energy, with energy planning and environmental protection also being important areas of our responsibilities that are vital to sustaining the marine energy sector's ongoing success.
So, Dirprwy Lywydd, having established the strong consensus around the importance of offshore marine energy, and the commitment of this Welsh Labour Government to continue to support its success, I'd like to turn to the wider context in which we operate, and particularly the role of the UK Government in enabling the green revolution to which the motion today refers.
The key difference between the approach of the Conservative and Labour Parties, in the pursuit of fostering the industries of the future, is that we believe that Governments should take an active leading role. We believe that our ambitions will not be realised if instead Government are asleep at the tiller, as their Westminster colleagues sometimes appear to quite literally be.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Will you take an intervention, Minister?

Julie James AC: Certainly.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm grateful for you taking the intervention. Obviously, you're on a trail now to denigrate the actions of the UK Government. Why is it the case that the first, the second, the third and the fourth largest windfarms in the world are in the United Kingdom—in the world—if the UK Government has been slow to act?

Julie James AC: Because they could have had the sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth if they'd been a bit faster is the easiest answer to that. [Interruption.] Your motion today makes no mention—no mention at all—of the UK Government's responsibilities. It makes no mention at all of the UK Government's responsibilities. What I would say to you is this: you believe that we should be part of a union in the United Kingdom. We have mutually agreed responsibilities. You want us to step up to ours; you need to ask your political masters in Westminster to step up to theirs. Your party's motion makes no mention of the responsibility of the UK Government, as if it's entirely divorced from the developments in Wales. And it's completely understandable to me that you do that, because you have a record of colossal failure in the energy sector, and it's easier forgotten. [Interruption.] I'll remind you of one. Do you remember the Charles Hendry report? You sat on those benches opposite here and supported it—

Minister, Minister. I would like to hear the response from the Minister, and at the moment, I can't because of the noise coming from the opposition benches, so please give her a chance to respond.

Julie James AC: You sat opposite me and you agreed with me that the Swansea bay lagoon should be built. Your own Conservative MP who looked at the report agreed that it should be built—Charles Hendry. Do you remember that? And the Government did what? It said 'no'. It said it wasn't to be built, even though it was absolutely called a 'no-brainer'.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Will you take another intervention?

Julie James AC: Of course.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Minister, for being so generous with interventions. And I agree that it was a missed opportunity not to build Swansea tidal lagoon. I agree with that. But an important point that my colleague, Paul Davies, raised was the ability of NRW to license these schemes, and that was an unwritten agenda item to do on behalf of the Welsh Government. NRW would not issue the marine licences, and the developers were deeply concerned that, even if they had the go-ahead, they wouldn't have been able to proceed because those marine licences weren't forthcoming.

Julie James AC: The difference there, of course, is that that's a hypothetical concern, and the actual concern was that the UK Government would not support it. We have recently done an end-to-end review of marine licensing in Wales, because we want to have the most effective and efficient system. Only yesterday I discussed it with NRW's marine licensing team. So, we are absolutely on that. But we need both Governments to step up to the mark. It's just as simple as that. The UK Conservative Government has not brought forward a contracts for difference mechanism of the scale and sophistication to match the extent and nature of the opportunities in the offshore marine sector. They need to significantly expand the contracts for difference to enable more projects—and crucially more projects at different scales—to come forward if we are to become the world leaders we can be in this sector. And crucially, they need to ensure that the auction round for the Celtic sea contains robust local supply and employment conditions in it and does not just go to the highest bidder so that the profits come once to the Crown Estate and then all the other profits are exported from the UK. And you know that as well as I do, and you need to call on them to do just that.
And in addition to that, the UK Conservative Government continues to fail to reform the development of the national grid, completely constraining our ability to deliver a planned expansion of grid infrastructure in line with a rapid and wholesale switch to renewables. I'm really sorry to have to say that, instead, the UK Government presides over a slow, expensive, piecemeal approach under which all aspects of the energy system suffer, locking communities out of opportunities for jobs, locking out the nature restoration that Janet always triumphs, and the regeneration that energy investment absolutely should and could bring. The First Minister only yesterday told you of the concerns that we have both had expressed to us, that we get this energy—really lovely, green, renewable energy with all of the resource and jobs that you have all talked about—to the beach and then where does it go? Because, without the grid, there's nowhere for it to go. So, the UK Government must—must—bring forward the grid reform—must.
The other issue with the UK Government is that it relies far too heavily on adding costs to consumer bills rather than on general taxation in order to meet these challenges. The regulatory asset base model of development is no good, absolutely no good. It's highly regressive and it's an unfair way, which places disproportionate burdens on those who can least bear it. [Interruption.]

The Minister is waiting to speak without interventions, and I would like to listen to the Minister. I've asked once already this afternoon. All Members—all Members—need to ensure that I'm able to hear the Minister.

Julie James AC: As I was saying, the UK Government relies far too heavily on the RAB mechanism for funding these things, which adds costs to customer bills, rather than on general taxation. It is regressive and it places a disproportionate burden on those who can least bear it, which in itself slows progress towards the energy system we need. A different model of investment is desperately required. But instead of reforming these important areas within their responsibility, the UK Government spent the whole of last year fighting like cats in a sack as they ran the UK economy into the ground—there's no getting away from that; that's what they did—only occasionally pausing to play up to the right-wing press by taking an opportunity to pick fights with anyone else they could find—desperate people fleeing conflict or essential workers to whom we all owe so much and who you were very pleased to clap for, but not so pleased to pay for, I notice.
So, I welcome the motion's acknowledgement of the importance of the thousands of jobs to be gained in the marine sector and the importance of free ports, now that we have successfully campaigned for the UK Government to acknowledge the need for a level-playing field, as acknowledged by Rhun in his contribution. But I also wonder if the Conservative Party, in your closing remarks, will acknowledge and apologise for the thousands of jobs lost in the last few months as a result of your breathtaking incompetence and the obsession with taking chunks out of each other instead of taking charge of the green revolution that you all claim to aspire to.
You also might want to explain why the hundreds of millions of pounds of EU funds that we invested in marine energy have not been replaced in full, or even acknolwedge that they haven't been replaced at all. So, I hope the Conservatives, in closing this debate today, will take the opportunity for once to speak up for the interests of Wales. Perhaps they might let us know what representations they have made and will be making to their UK counterparts on those areas of their responsibilities in enabling a green energy revolution. And to help you out, I’d like to suggest you join with us today in calling on the UK Government to invest in all Welsh ports, to enable them to maximise the opportunities for the deployment of offshore renewables, to work with us on addressing the UK-wide supply chain gaps, and transfer further powers relating to offshore consenting, energy storage and the Crown Estate. Those three modest and potentially rapid actions would finally show that UK Government is indeed taking the opportunities in this sector seriously, and would further advance the ambitions for Wales shared right across this Chamber.
And finally, I would like to commend the bravery of the Welsh Conservatives for bringing forward this motion, as their UK counterparts preside over the deterioration of the energy system and wider economy and open coal mines—I ask you, coal mines. I would urge you to be even more courageous and ask your UK counterparts to call a UK general election, so that we can have the Government we need for a greener, fairer, and, frankly, functioning Government. Diolch.

I call on Samuel Kurtz to respond to the debate.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’ve responded to the Minister before on a debate where I’ve agreed with so much of what she said, and, for 30 seconds this afternoon, I agreed with nigh on 100 per cent of it, and then I felt, Minister, you really did miss the aim of what we were trying to do with this debate this afternoon, in the consensual nature as to what this is doing. Even only last night, there was cross-party support in terms of the event I hosted around renewable energies. I think you completely missed the mark on what we were trying to achieve here this afternoon.
But we have had, from sensible benches on my left-hand side, an emphasis in this Chamber throughout the debate about the host of opportunities Wales’s coastline has to offer: an unprecedented treasure of blue and green opportunities that not only aid our fightback against climate change, but enhance the environment, economy and our society. And unlike other parts of Britain, not only are these opportunities exclusive to one region, they are available to us around the whole coast of Wales, from the utilisation of north Wales’s coastline—as Janet so passionately spoke about at the beginning—to the abundance of untapped energy in Pembrokeshire’s floating offshore wind potential. So, let’s not be a nation that just boasts of these possibilities, that potential—as Delyth Jewell said on Zoom—that potential that we have here; let’s seize that with both hands and be part of the story, the global story, here in Wales.
And this is already under way in west Wales. We saw, as I mentioned, and heard that last night, during the Haven Waterway future energy cluster Senedd reception: Pembrokeshire is the critical energy asset to decarbonising the south Wales industrial cluster and obtaining the United Kingdom’s energy security, with the UK’s largest energy port in the Haven Waterway. But, for this to be the case, then this Government—and the UK Government, absolutely; we need to be working collaboratively—must pursue a path of cross-industry application, bringing together both the public and the private sectors, displaying an immediate focus on advancing our green energy sector.

Tom Giffard AS: Will you take an intervention?

Samuel Kurtz MS: I’ll happily take an intervention from the Member for South Wales West.

Tom Giffard AS: I'm grateful to you for the intervention. And on that floating windfarm off the south-west Wales coast, which I know we both support, did you share my delight earlier today when we saw the Secretary of State for Wales, David T.C. Davies, confirming that the building materials for that floating offshore windfarm would be sourced as locally as possible, which would have a huge impact on the local economy, as well as our green ambitions?

Samuel Kurtz MS: Absolutely. I’m very grateful to the Member for that intervention, and I share with him his delight in that announcement by the Secretary of State for Wales. It would have been nice had the Minister mentioned that in her statement earlier, advocating something positive. I’m not one to shy away from saying Welsh Government have done something well at some point—it’s few and far between, granted—but it would be nice if the Welsh Government were able to look up the M4 and say, ‘That was a good idea, UK Government; thank you very much for that.’ Because that’s what T.C. Davies has done with that statement today.
With offshore renewable energy—. If I return to my speech, with the Offshore Renewable energy Catapult, port of Milford Haven, Marine Energy Wales, RWE, Blue Gem Wind, Valero, Dragon LNG, South Hook LNG, Floventis Energy, Blue Flow Energy—too many to name—we can ensure that Pembrokeshire becomes the premier peninsula in energy production, supporting supply chains, as Tom Giffard said, and employment the length and breadth of Wales—those job prospects that were mentioned by Sam Rowlands in his contribution earlier this afternoon.
But, as we’ve heard from both Paul Davies and Altaf Hussain, the opportunities don’t just stop there. The Celtic Freeport bid is a transformational project that will accelerate Wales’s path to net zero, decarbonise south Wales’s industrial corridor, and support the growth of new industry by rolling out floating offshore wind, hydrogen production, marine energy and clean, sustainable fuels. The Member for Ynys Môn, Rhun ap Iorwerth, mentioned his advocation for the free port bid in Holyhead; I absolutely agree with him that two bids in Wales should be accepted. I think that’s a great idea. And do you know what I think? Because there are two Welsh Government Ministers,there are two UK Government Ministers, on the decision-making panel, I'm glad that they'll be able to listen to Rhun's calls, Paul's calls and my calls this afternoon that Wales receives two free ports.
But this is what a free port can bring to the Celtic sea: it can generate £5.5 million in new investment, it can bring over 16,000 new high-quality green jobs and trigger £1.4 billion in port infrastructure, those improvements to port infrastructure that we've heard this afternoon, securing a first move in the advantage of the global floating offshore wind market, bringing these exciting opportunities to south-west Wales. Investing in areas of existing infrastructure is an opportunity to work with the undisputed potential—Delyth mentioned that potential—to enhance the opportunities before us and support the industry-wide transition towards carbon zero and net zero. It's through science and technological advances that we are going to stop the damaging effects of climate change. From large-scale floating offshore wind, the advancement of tidal and wave technologies, and the yielding of both blue and green hydrogen, the Celtic sea and Wales's coastal waters will help deliver clean energy and employment for generations to come.
Carolyn Thomas mentioned the hurdles that are in the way, and used the opportunity of her five-minute contribution to bash the UK Government once again, which is what we've come to expect—I've come to expect—in my near two years in this Chamber: just bashing, bashing, bashing with no understanding of what the issues are at hand. But what we need to do is to have co-operation. This is an opportunity that we can all see, so why are we shaking our heads, Minister? Why are we not seeing the potential that's there? I'd be willing to take an intervention, Minister.

Julie James AC: Certainly. I don't think you should be as patronising as that to other Members of this Senedd.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm sorry, Minister, I'm not being patronising—[Interruption.] I'm not being patronising. The UK has generated only 3 per cent of the global human carbon dioxide output, yet, as Andrew R.T. Davies said, we've got the largest, second largest, third largest and fourth largest offshore windfarms. I think we should be damn proud of what we've achieved here in the United Kingdom. We should be damn proud of what Wales can do in that renewable story as well.
So, I will not listen to—. There are no political masters with me, Minister. I make my own decisions when I'm in this Chamber here, and I am proud to be able to support the Welsh Conservative group, proud—[Interruption.] As long as my whip agrees with me; that's absolutely right. I'm proud to support this motion, and I urge all the Members in the Chamber this afternoon to do so too. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I remind Members to watch their language in their contributions.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Management of NHS pressures

Item 7 is next, the Plaid Cymru debate, on management of NHS pressures. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM8181 Siân Gwenllian
Supported by Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Regrets the Welsh Government's mismanagement of the pressures facing the NHS.
2. Declares a health crisis in Wales.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm pleased to have the opportunity to move this motion. To continue in the spirit that we've seen in the Senedd this afternoon, I will emphasise that this motion is intended to be constructive. Yes, it is critical of the Welsh Government's management of health and care services, and I'm afraid that is based on the clear evidence before us. But this effort to declare a health crisis in Wales is something that we hope can arm the Welsh Government to respond better to the challenges.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It's a former head of research at General Motors, Charles Kettering, who said nearly a century ago now that 'a problem well stated is half solved'. Now, when this Senedd declared a climate emergency, it was a declaration that the challenge we faced on climate change was so extraordinary that it needed to be elevated, to be elevated within our national psyche, to be elevated in terms of parliamentary importance, in terms of Government priority.
Now, perhaps Mr Kettering would be pushing it rather far if he said that that recognition of the scale of the climate challenge meant half the work had been done to address the issue, but it did mark a gear change, I think. It was a gear change that Welsh Government itself recognised had to be made, because, if I recall, the day before the Senedd took a vote on a motion declaring a climate emergency, Government made that declaration itself. Now, that declaration then represented a new context within which a whole host of decisions were taken, and are still being taken, from policy and funding priorities to the very structures of Government within which those decisions are made.
So, today, we’re asking for a declaration of a health crisis. Once again, this is because we’re facing challenges of such extraordinary gravity that we believe Government needs to be arming itself as well as it possibly can to deal with the situation, and just as with the declaration of a climate emergency, I think that making that declaration today could bring about a number of positive steps. It would help focus minds on finding new and innovative ways to address the problems we face. Similarly, I think it would help focus all spending powers, however scarce—and I see the finance Minister is here with us this afternoon—on the issues that matter, and nothing, of course, is more important at the moment than resolving the pay dispute. Finally, I’d hope it would make Government look again at its own structures, perhaps, and processes, to ensure they’re best geared to deal with this crisis.
Now, I’m looking forward to the Minister’s response to that stated intention. After all, whilst it’s a crisis for Government itself, the most important thing is that this is a crisis for everyone—for ordinary people the length and breadth of Wales, and of course it’s a crisis for our hard-working health and care staff, day in, day out, right across the health and care sector. Now, if Government doesn’t see fit to support our call and to agree to declare a health crisis then we need to know why. Is it that they don’t see the benefit of making that kind of formal declaration? Or that they still don’t agree that it is a crisis? The chief executive of the Welsh NHS told ITV News earlier this month that she would not describe it as a crisis, but acknowledges that the situation is hugely pressurised. The First Minister said last week that he didn’t think it was in a perpetual state of crisis, which may be slightly different, but there were undoubtedly days, he said, when front line staff could be forgiven for thinking it was.
Now, it’s always useful to look at definitions. Here are a few. Crisis: a time of intense difficulty or danger; a time when a difficult or important decision must be made. The Oxford dictionary—often a go-to—suggests, for 'crisis',
'a time of great danger, difficulty or doubt when problems must be solved or important decisions must be made'.
I don’t think there could be a better definition of where we are regarding health and care in Wales: a time when problems must be solved and hugely important decisions must be made. It is a crisis by any measure, and I can’t think of many more important decisions that Welsh Government could take now than those that could really start addressing that crisis that we face, starting with resolving the pay disputes to put that vital workforce at the heart of recovery, and then on to all those other elements that need a real gear change.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: But we have to accept that there is a crisis first of all. I described the situation as it was at the time during health questions here in the Siambr in December, and I referred to a series of challenges, as I saw them that day, including winter pressures, the recruitment and retention of staff, waiting times for treatment in A&E, ambulance waiting times, and so on and so forth. I asked the Minister what state she expects the NHS to be in by the next question session, which will be within a week. The Minister referred to a number of steps that were to be put in place, and she said that she hoped for positive outcomes.
But let’s consider what we’ve seen since then. Industrial action intensified, with more strike days called by nurses and ambulance workers; ambulances stuck outside hospitals for 32,500 hours in December—the full capacity is 100,000 hours; and a decision to allow patients to leave hospitals without a care package, despite the grave concerns raised by medics, carers and others. I know that the Minister justifies that, saying that it’s based on evidence, but once again today I was in a meeting with doctors who raised serious concerns about that. Two critical incidents in Betsi Cadwaladr health board within a fortnight; Swansea bay health board encouraging people to stay away from hospital unless there was a real threat to life. And, of course, our post bags, those of each of us as Members of this Senedd, tells us a story, and it tells that story very clearly as to how problems within the health service and the unsustainability that has to be addressed are having a direct impact on people's lives, on patients and their experience, never mind, of course, all of the staff who contact us having reached the end of their tether.
Dirprwy Lywydd, this is a crisis—there is no doubt about that—and that means that we have two choices: we can continue as we are or we seek a way of placing a new focus on these issues. It's important to recognise that I don't doubt for a second that the Government wants to tackle these challenges, but they are managerial, in my view, and I'm quite sure that there isn't a single Member in this Senedd who would like to resolve the problems more than the health Minister herself, but what's happening at the moment under her leadership isn't working. Indeed, one Minister after another has failed to create the kind of sustainability that we need within our health and care services, and that's why we do use the word 'mismanagement' in today's motion.
But let us agree that there is a crisis, as an important and positive step, and I will make it clear by saying again that the first crucial step is to settle the pay disputes. I understand that the RCN is to write to the First Minister again today, asking why he hasn't responded, as he promised to do, to their letter of 19 December, calling on him to make an improved pay offer. He said that he would respond after the brief Christmas recess. It's almost the end of January now. We need a response that shows the scale of the crisis and we need to accept that we are in crisis as a starting point to a better and a more sustainable time for health, because it feels a very long way away at the moment.

Russell George AC: Can I thank Plaid Cymru for tabling this motion today, and as Welsh Conservatives we'll be supporting the motion as it's tabled? The health service is in crisis, and they are serious words. When you are declaring a health crisis in Wales, they are serious words that you've got to think carefully about before stating them, and talking about mismanagement—serious words—but that is exactly the position we're in. And for the reasons that Rhun ap Iorwerth has outlined, you've got to recognise a problem in order to be able to move forward, as Rhun put it very well in his opening comments.
I don't underestimate the challenge that you have, Minister, and there are huge pressures still to come, we're in the middle of winter, we've got worse months to come, and I'm under no illusion of the difficult pressures. There are difficult pressures in health services right across Europe, right across the UK. There are challenges in the NHS in every part of the country, and of course I recognise that. But we're in a worse and a more significant position in Wales. We've got the slowest ambulance response times on record, the longest treatment waiting list and the worst A&E waits in Britain. That is fact and that's what we've got to recognise.
We've had some discussion about agency nursing in recent contributions, and it was very much mentioned in the Chamber yesterday, Minister, but agency staff have doubled in the last five years—doubled—costing the Welsh NHS £260 million in 2022 alone. The number of agency staff employed had risen by an unsustainable 36 per cent by 2021. So, I think the Welsh Government has really got to get to grips with this in particular, and I recognise that the Minister recognises that also. And, of course, I heard the First Minister say yesterday that this isn't something that can be done overnight. Yes, of course, I know that, but the point is it should have started five years ago. The workforce challenges that we have have been there for some time.
As opposition parties in this Chamber, our job is to scrutinise, our job is to hold you, Minister, to account, but it's also to come forward with policy positions and how we could resolve some of the issues, and to put those to you, Minister. Now, I'm going to mention surgical hubs; you're going to have your hand on your head again and say, 'Oh no, he's going to go on about surgical hubs all over again.' But I'm happy to move on that conversation, Minister, as well. To me, I don't particularly care what something is called; it's about outcomes, and I know you agree with that as well.
But the outcomes at the moment, the position that we're in, is that two-year waits have virtually been wiped out in England and Scotland, and in Wales, we still have 55,000 people waiting over two years for treatment. That is the position. I know, Minister, you often say, 'Well, we're in a different position here, we've got an older and sicker population', but surely—surely—that's what devolution is about. If we can't have different policies and tailoring to the demographics of our nation, what on earth is devolution for? We've got to have different policy positions in order to deal with the challenges that we have.
And on specialist hubs, yes, I understand what you outlined yesterday, Minister, but the point is, if you have a specialist surgical hub in south Wales, that is an eight-hour round trip for somebody in north Wales. So, I would suggest that the model that is in England, where you have not specialist, but general surgical hubs, is better for a country that is more rural, and most health boards across Wales should have a surgical hub.
We've also outlined, Minister, our GP access plan for doctors. People need to see doctors in order to take the pressure off the NHS. There's more of a role for pharmacists to play in order to reduce the burden on our GPs. Modernising tech, supporting our GPs in that. But on technology, we've also put forward our NHS tech bundle, designed to modernise health services and bring them into line with the rest of the UK. E-prescriptions: we're still miles behind on e-prescriptions. We really should be getting on with this by now and keeping up with the rest of the UK. Developing an NHS app: that is available in other parts of the UK, not in Wales. And abolishing fax machines in our health boards. How are we still using fax machines in our Welsh NHS?
So, Minister, being the Minister in Wales for health is not an easy job, especially if you're a Labour Minister constantly being undermined by the Labour opposition in Westminster. So, I would say that there is no party that has the monopoly on ideas, and I hope that, across all political parties in this Chamber, we can constructively put ideas to you, Minister, for consideration. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Heledd Fychan AS: To solve a crisis, you have to acknowledge that there is a crisis. It's a lesson that we always tell our children, 'Be honest; we need to know the truth', but the same is true when it comes to public services. And the truth is that we know, all of us know, from our case work, about people who have lost their lives who would have lived. The headlines are there consistently, and that's what we need to focus on, namely the people who work in the health service and those people who are dependent on the health service who have been let down.
And it's not the fault of the staff; let us make it clear. Very often, the Minister refers rightly to all of the heroic work being done by employees in our health service every day, and there are a whole host of lives saved on a daily basis. We're not denying that. Even when there are health boards that have been in special measures, that heroic work continues, but those health boards have still remained in special measures.
And that is what we are asking for today, namely an acknowledgement and recognition of what we all know, what everyone we represent knows, and what the health workers know, that there is a crisis. We do have to acknowledge that. What is disappointing is that every single seat isn't full here, or that people have joined online, so that we reflect the scale of the correspondence we receive on a daily basis on this issue, because there isn't a greater crisis facing us. I'm sure of that, because it impacts everything and it aligns with the cost-of-living crisis—of course it does.

Heledd Fychan AS: What we need to bear in mind is that this is happening in very challenging circumstances, and staff are openly admitting to being at breaking point. Visiting picket lines before Christmas, and speaking to nurses striking for the first time in their lives, they emphasised to me that patient safety was at the forefront of their minds when taking the decision to strike, even more so than pay. They recounted the horrors of what they'd experienced during the pandemic and the ongoing psychological impact, coupled with a crippling workload. They are doing their best, but know that the NHS they have always been proud to work for cannot currently do its best for patients. And every time they hear a Minister saythere isn't a crisis, they ask, 'If this isn't a crisis, then how much worse are they expecting it to get?' It's not just bad every now and then—this is continuous for people working in our health services and for patients who rely on that crucial support.

Heledd Fychan AS: Unfortunately, things are deteriorating. We're seeing examples of people saying, 'Well, there's no point for me to phone the doctor', 'There's no point for me to phone for an ambulance because I'm not going to get there.'
I'd like to focus specifically on the impact of the crisis on women, who, of course, count for over 50 per cent of the Welsh population. Again, studies show that the gender health gap continues to exist and that there are barriers facing women in terms of accessing the healthcare that they need.

Heledd Fychan AS: The lack of investment in treatment for women's health conditions has resulted in cross-border agreement for treatment, but this does not always happen. Pregnant women, new mothers and those who have experienced pregnancy loss often need specialist mental health support, and, in Wales, even before the pandemic, these women have not always been well supported. Early research suggests that the need for these services has increased substantially, but it's again those who are always impacted, such as by the cost-of-living crisis, who are being affected by the lack of access now, including black, Asian and minority ethnic and poorer mothers.
We can only drive improvement to maternity care in Wales if there are enough midwives working in the NHS in every part of Wales. We must do more to retain the qualified and experienced staff we have, and we can look at staffing levels, but we have seen continuously that it's the retention of experienced staff that is the concern here, and very often it's new nurses being left in charge of wards not having that experience and so on. So, there is a matter about retaining those experienced staff as well. Whilst the Welsh Government has committed to producing a women's health plan for Wales, and we saw the discovery report being published in November 2022, we also now need to see the actions, key deliverables and measurable outcomes as a matter of urgency. After all, the future of our NHS depends on this. The health and care sector is primarily composed of women, and a women's health plan would help minimise avoidable ill health in this workforce. How can the Welsh Government improve the efficiency of its NHS if it cannot cater towards its workers?
The Welsh Government does need to take into account that mismanagement—. And we don't mean during the pandemic; this has been since devolution. It is within Welsh Labour's control in terms of health. We cannot avoid scrutiny here in Wales. As I said, if this isn't a crisis, what is? Can we be honest with those that we represent and the workforce, and then work together to improve things?

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Our NHS is at breaking point. Something has to give. There have been long-standing problems with patient flow through hospitals. When you combine this with an increased pressure on our emergency service and more and more patients being added to waiting lists, our hard-working staff are being forced to work harder, and work harder in worse conditions.
There will be some in this Chamber that won't want to hear this; they refuse to believe it. Well, don't take my word for it—take the word of the British Medical Association Cymru Wales who recently released the findings of their NHS pressure portal, a place where doctors from across Wales have shared accounts of the state of their working conditions, and the pressures that they face on a daily basis. From treating patients in cupboards, on chairs, to working 12-hour shifts without breaks, doctors laid bare their experiences to highlight the risk to patient and staff safety. Other concerns include patients waiting for up to 14 hours in A&E being the new normal, patients needed cardiac monitors going unmonitored due to a lack of space, and patients being treated in the back of ambulances.
The recent strikes for nurses and ambulance workers are a last resort from dedicated staff who have patient safety at the heart of their actions. That was what came out loud and clear during my visits to picket lines: yes, pay is important, but so is patient safety. Staff should not have to go on strike to make safe their working conditions and the conditions for patients. Something has to give. As a party, we've always been on the side of workers fighting for fair pay and safe working conditions. There have been ample opportunities for the Welsh Labour Government to show their support for nurses. They have not taken them.
The biggest challenge to the Nurse Staffing Levels (Wales) Act 2016 is the sustainability of the nursing workforce. There are for more nurses leaving the NHS than can be matched by newly qualified nurses or internationally recruited nurses. Regrettably, there have been no actions by the Welsh Government since the RCN's last report in 2019 to address nursing retention issues. With more and more people being added to waiting lists every day, our NHS is locked into a vicious cycle. We can't speed the flow of patients through the system until that is addressed and, in the meantime, our overworked and under-resourced health and care staff are working around the clock to keep things moving, or, as many are doing, they are leaving the profession, never to return.
Over 60 per cent of people on the waiting list are waiting for their first outpatient appointment. It will take a whole-system effort to reduce these figures and ensure people are seen in a timely manner. The delays in out-patient appointments, diagnostic tests and surgery have catastrophic impact on those waiting, as well as their families and their carers. Clinicians are reporting examples including people presenting with late-stage cancer, more complex cataracts, and people who were walking with a stick now needing wheelchairs.
I have also previously mentioned in committee scrutiny meetings the inconsistency of the Welsh Minister calling for people to assume greater personal responsibility in terms of exercise and leading healthy lives at a time when council cuts are being made due to a lack of Welsh Government funding. In my region, the people of Pontllanfraith probably had a wry smile on their face when they heard the health Minister talk about people taking more responsibility for their health after the Labour-controlled local authority did everything in their power to shut the local leisure centre. Only a court challenge stopped them. After 25 years of running health in Wales, staff and patients need to know why they should have the confidence in Labour's ability to improve our NHS. This isn't just about clearing COVID backlogs—the issues I have mentioned have existed pre pandemic and they require urgent solutions. The current state of our NHS is unacceptable and cannot be defended. We are in a health crisis. I urge Members to vote for our motion. Diolch yn fawr.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Carolyn Thomas AS: There is a health crisis right across the UK, not just in Wales, and all evidence shows this has worsened over the last 12 years since the start of austerity and cuts to public services, and will get worse under this UK Tory Government and their cost-of-living crisis. We can't look at the NHS in isolation. Adequate housing, food, education and fair work all contribute to good physical and mental health. Year after year, I've seen preventative services be squeezed and cut as councils look at anything non-statutory. However, many of these services have been saved, thanks to Welsh Government funding choices and European funding, which we will soon see the last of. Those that were saved under austerity 1 may be lost under austerity 2 and all the pressures they're all facing.
Damp and mould in homes is becoming more of an issue as people cannot afford to heat them. Healthy, hot, nourishing food is now a luxury for many. Increasing productivity beyond a reasonable limit, seeing people having to work 12-hour shifts, two days and then two nights, playing havoc with your body, your mental health and family, also has implications. When I spoke to nurses on the picket line and a police officer in England, it was the relentless 12-hour shifts and the lack of flexibility that was a huge issue, not just wages. And it's not just about the NHS—social healthcare funding needs to grow massively from central Government in line with the growing ageing population. That's a crisis we're facing. There is more advancing technology—

Gareth Davies AS: Will the Member take an intervention?

Carolyn Thomas AS: Yes, okay.

Gareth Davies AS: When you met the striking nurses on the picket line, did you inform them that health has been devolved to the Labour Goverment in Wales for nearly 25 years?

Carolyn Thomas AS: Actually, most of the nurses realised that colleagues across the border in England as well were on picket lines and they knew that it was an issue right across the UK. And that's what they're fighting for—for colleagues right across the UK.
Sorry, I've forgotten where I was after taking the intervention. There is more advancing technology, more medicines available to help people, and this needs adequate funding. I heard on the Jeremy Vine show a doctor say that when he practised, just 7 per cent of the budget went on drugs and medicine; now it's 19 per cent of the budget, but the budget's not grown with it.
We all hear of many issues, but there are also good reports as well. Each week, I hear of more being done differently in the community, and this seems a good forward step. This weekend, a resident told me he'd recently undergone major heart surgery. Wrexham Maelor worked closely with Broadgreen and he's now having weekly rehabilitation and assessment through a community facility in Connah's Quay. A nurse checks his medication and he's given exercises there, and she also phones him at home. Another resident told me how he e-mailed images of a spot that wouldn't heal to his doctor. He was able to look online, telephone him, and refer him to a specialist who removed the malignant melanoma, all dealt with quickly and only with one visit to hospital—all dealt with online. So, these are good ways forward.
Positive steps forward are being made, and more nurse and allied professional training places are being offered than ever before, with new courses at Glyndŵr, in north-east Wales, as well as Bangor, and a new medical school being developed as well as a dental academy. More community and reablement beds are being offered in Wales, such as at Marleyfield in Buckley, thanks to the ICF and housing funding, and I hope that continues as well. I recently visited a well-being hub in Wrexham town centre, which incorporates a consulting room for long COVID, and I believe another one is being built in Penygroes, which will incorporate a consulting room in the community.
The NHS 111 'press 2' is to launch in north Wales today. It's a dedicated mental health advice service, offering support for people of all ages via the established NHS 111 call number. At present, up to 40 per cent of GP appointments involve mental health concerns, and with primary care services continuing to face pressures, this new service will really help and give the support that's needed. A new, unique programme to transform the well-being and mental health of children and young people in north Wales has been recognised with a national award, which is the Missing Boys project from Denbighshire county council, which provided increased school-based counselling services for young boys and men between 11 and 18 years.
So, a lot is still being done, and I do understand that there is a crisis as well, but while recognising the challenges we face we should not forget the incredible work being done by our amazing public services. But we now need proper funding from the UK Government to support them. Thank you.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The experiences of the pandemic did perhaps reinforce something that we were all very aware of, namely that the nursing workforce within the health service was suffering in terms of lack of numbers, low pay, and even lower morale. We then of course see ambulance workers going on strike. We are likely to see doctors in Wales following suit by also going on strike, and it's clear that the current situation is unsustainable. Leaders within the health service are warning that the service is at a precipice, and are asking the Government to do everything it can to move away from that cliff edge, because we all know there would be serious implications to what might happen because of that.
As a party, we've always been on the side of health and care workers, advocating for fairer pay and sustainability within the profession. I'm sure many of you will recall how Plaid Cymru was a very lonely voice for many years, arguing for a medical school in Bangor—something that the Government has now, of course, supported. I, and many Members on these benches and other benches, have regularly raised over the past decade the need for better workforce planning within the health workforce, but here we are today, with one in eight nursing roles in north Wales being vacant. The upshot of that, of course, is a reliance on agency nurses and expenditure across Wales of hundreds of millions of pounds over recent years.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The Welsh Government can't abdicate responsibility from this. Yes, many of these pressures reach beyond Wales and afflict other parts of the United Kingdom, but nobody can say that the Welsh Government wasn't warned over many years about this ticking time bomb. Nobody can deny, also, that you have options to address this crisis. We can all see that the Government's handling of this so far has effectively led us to where we are today. Even prior to the strike action taking place by RCN members, the health Minister refused to meet with the Welsh partnership forum, despite the forum'slong history of productive social partnership. The refusal to meet with the WPF was unnecessary brinkmanship, copied straight from the Tory playbook. But, subsequent meetings have been fruitless. The recent proposal of a one-off unspecified payment, rejected by the unions as unsatisfactory, speaks to a longer pattern of a lack of coherent strategy around the workforce by the current Minister and her predecessors as well, of course, because much of this isn't new.
I feel as if the Government is becoming a broken record, blaming the UK Government. And of course the UK Government has a lot to answer for. Crikey, I get up often enough and say that in this Chamber. But, for me, every time the Labour Government here points the finger at the Westminster Government, it strengthens the argument that some of the powers they have there should therefore be devolved here so that we don't have to suffer and don't have to be beholden to the damaging decisions that they make.
Now, one decision that lays fairly and squarely with the Welsh Government, of course, and it's something I raised last week, is the closure of community hospitals across Wales. We heard how 12 per cent of hospital beds are suffering from delayed discharges, and closing community hospitals, in my view, has made that situation worse. The Minister's retort was that community hospitals are more expensive; quite possibly. I've seen figures that tell a different story, but I've no reason to doubt the Minister's integrity in that respect. But, of course, we were told at the time, when that change was happening, that cost wasn't the driver. The driver was this need to move to a new, better model of care. We were promised enhanced home care, but that was never delivered as promised. We warned at the time of the implications. You will always need that step-down provision for people who are too well to be in hospital but maybe not well enough to be at home. There is that centre ground, that provision that is needed. When you lose that, why are we surprised that there is such a level of delayed discharge in the flow of the system, as it is now? And we graphically see how the closure of community hospitals is at least contributing to the crisis that we're currently in.

Cefin Campbell MS: I'm very grateful for this opportunity to contribute to today's debate, because it's vital that we draw attention to the challenges facing the health service to prevent those challenges from becoming normalised. And that's the big danger, that the current deficiencies become a normal part of the service in moving forward to the future. I also welcome this opportunity to call on the Welsh Government to use the full range of powers that it has to try to tackle the variety of problems in the health sector, as we've already heard. The people of Wales can and should expect better.
We've already heard this evening about the variety of complex issues that face the health service. Ambulance waiting times remind us clearly of the huge pressure on the sector. In November alone, 4,600 red calls were made to the ambulance service—the highest ever number of red calls in a single month. Fewer than half of the ambulances arrived within the target time of eight minutes. Too many people therefore are having to wait hours for an ambulance, instead being encouraged to travel to their local A&E departments themselves. And, on several occasions, an ambulance isn't even available.
We've heard so many heartbreaking accounts this winter. Just before Christmas, we saw the very powerful image on the news platforms and social media of a 93-year-old woman, one of my constituents, lying on the floor having been left screaming in agony as she waited 25 hours for an ambulance. And it's important for us to remember, of course, that, behind these numerous stories and the bare facts and statistics are real people and real families having to watch their loved ones in pain.

Cefin Campbell MS: Waiting for an ambulance is, of course, only the first part of the story. Critical delays in response times are being driven by overcrowding and a shortage of hospital beds at the other end, which means that patients are often having to wait for hours in cold ambulances outside emergency departments before they can be admitted. I was recently contacted by a constituent who told me about what had happened to their loved one, who is a cancer patient. Despite being on amber alert for an ambulance, she was nonetheless forced to wait six hours for an ambulance. She then had to wait a further six hours outside A&E before she could be transferred.In October, 28,143 'hours lost' were recorded due to crews having to stay with patients who were unable to be passed into the care of emergency units in Wales. That’s almost 30,000 hours in one month that could and should have been spent responding to other life-threatening calls.
According to the head of the Welsh Ambulance Service NHS Trust, there have been some incidents where paramedics have started their shift, taken a patient to A&E, sat with them for the rest of their shift, finished work and gone home, only to return 12 hours later to see the same patient again in the same ambulance, because they had still not been able to go into A&E. I know that this is a source of immense frustration for paramedics—and I'm sure for the Minister as well—who want to be out there ensuring that life-saving care is given to all who need it.

Cefin Campbell MS: Amongst everything that is happening, the Welsh Government is in serious danger at present of losing the confidence and support of our health workers, and indeed the wider public, in its ability to manage the NHS. This is reflected in the fact that ambulance staff have now decided to take industrial action—something that I'm sure has weighed heavily on them.
It's clear that we need to address pressures on the ambulance service at pace, because they are leading to a catastrophic impact on patients and staff. I urge the Welsh Government to redouble its efforts and to use every lever available to it to tackle this genuine crisis.

The Minister for Health and Social Services now to contribute to the debate, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I wasn't exactly sure what Plaid Cymru hoped to achieve by getting the Welsh Government to declare a health crisis in Wales, so, I am pleased that I now know the three main points of what you wanted us to focus on, and I am grateful for those.So, one of them was to help focus minds on finding innovative ways to address the problems we face, focus all our spending powers on the issues that matter, and the main one is resolving pay disputes and also to look at Government structures.
Let me just take some of those in order. First of all, finding innovative ways to address the problems we face—we are doing that. We’ve got £144 million in the regional integration fund that does precisely that—looks for innovative ways of doing things. And then, the whole point for me is that you have to then scale up what works. So, for example, we’re looking in an innovative way at the way Cardiff is dealing with their A&E long waits at the moment, and it’s quite successful, and now we’re trying to scale that up and take it across the whole of Wales. We’ve got this new community bed capacity—that, again, is an innovative approach. And I’ve said time and again that the six goals for urgent and emergency care are really starting to bite: we have a whole load of measures this year that weren’t in place last year.
I was really fascinated to hear about the Government structures. I’m not sure if, in the middle of a very difficult time, restructuring is a good idea. We are absolutely focused on the job in hand, but what I will tell you is that I do accept that we do need to have a more comprehensive debate at a time when we know that care is becoming more complex and we have an ageing population.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thanks for taking an intervention. One suggestion would be to make sure that the NHS Executive for Wales that's been set up really is a body that can make a difference—that has teeth. That's the kind of focus that I mean in terms of Government structures.

Eluned Morgan AC: Yes, absolutely, and that's already happening. So, that's why we've been having these summits, which have been more or less organised by the NHS executive, which is in shadow form at the moment.
But I was really interested in your point that you want us to focus all our spending powers on the issues that matter, and that's resolving the pay dispute. A lot of your colleagues have talked about other things—you know, that we've got to do community hospitals as well, and we've got to get more people to respond to ambulance calls and there's a shortage of beds. That's quite a long list, so I'm not quite sure whether you want us to focus everything on the pay dispute—

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: If the Minister will take an intervention, I'll gladly explain that again.

Eluned Morgan AC: Okay.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: What I said was top of the list was to resolve that pay dispute.

Eluned Morgan AC: Okay. Well, that's fine. Well, if it is top of the list, I'm just quite intrigued, then—. I'm quite intrigued, we have a co-operation agreement; there is hardly a mention of health in your co-operation agreement. Mental health is there; not a word about health. And I think it's really important for people to understand that we have to release money from somewhere, and I can't see you sticking your hand up and telling us exactly where you want us to cut.

Adam Price AC: If the First Minister will allow me to reveal why health isn't included in the co-operation agreement, then I'm quite happy for those minutes of those discussions to be published.

Eluned Morgan AC: You have a situation where we have a co-operation agreement, and there's money in the budget. If you're saying that we have to re-prioritise everything, then I think we've got to just be absolutely clear that you have made some decisions. You've made some political decisions, and you have to stand by those.
Now, the system, particularly over Christmas, was under pressure like the NHS has never experienced before. The demand was through the roof—we had COVID, we had flu, we had strep A, and they all coincided to add a significant extra demand on a service that was already under pressure. And let's not forget: we're still in a pandemic, and we're also trying to recover services at the same time.The First Minister suggested recently that there certainly were days when it must have felt like a crisis, both for those using the service, and for those delivering the service, but at the same time, as parts of the system felt under siege, other parts of the system were delivering on a scale that we've never seen before, and I'd like to thank the NHS and the staff for the incredible efforts that they're making.
So, just let me give you an idea of the scale of what we're talking about. The NHS management information for December suggests that, around 350,000 contacts took place in GP practices per week. For one week, this reached 400,000 contacts. In a month, 100,000 different people had an NHS dental appointment; there were around 127,000 eye appointments; 18,000 common ailments scheme consultations in community pharmacies; 2,000 sore throat tests were administered; and 4,000 consultations were undertaken by prescribing pharmacists. And on top of that—[Interruption.] No, if you don't mind, I'm going to carry on. On top of that, 375,000 consultations were undertaken in secondary care during October alone. So, yes, this is a system under strain, but the NHS is dealing with around 2 million contacts every month. Every month. So, yes, there are parts of it under strain, but let's not pretend that the whole system is in crisis. And on top of that, of course, we were doing other things. Eighty per cent of the adults in Wales over 65 were given their COVID boosters. Seventy-five per cent of the over 65s were given their flu vaccinations—measures that inevitably reduce the pressures that might otherwise have hit the system.
So, the vast majority of these people's experiences were positive, and I'm sure that most of them would not say that they felt that the system was in crisis in terms of their personal experience. But I do acknowledge that the pressure has been incredibly intense in some parts of the system, despite the huge amount of preparation that we put in place. All of the new services that we've put in place—the 111 service, new primary urgent care centres, new same-day emergency centres, 100 new ambulance staff, pharmacies that can give advice, additional 508 community beds—all of those services have diverted thousands of people away from A&E departments, and none of that existed last year.
Some people made points about digital. We need to go much further with digital. We're spending more on digital proportionately per head than they are in England.Women's health—it's very much that this is very high on my agenda. Surgical hubs—I responded to many of the points you made today earlier on in the week.
Llyr, I don't know where you got that idea that I wasn't meeting with the NHS workforce. I met them on Thursday, and I met some more people on Monday again. So, we actually have quite a good relationship with the unions. We don't always agree, but, actually, we do meet them very, very regularly. Let's not forget that we've still got COVID, and about 7 per cent of our workforce are off sick. Of course that puts pressure on the system.

Eluned Morgan AC: In terms of waiting lists in general, there was a reduction in the total number of people awaiting treatment in October, and this is a trend that I hope will continue over the next few months. It's interesting to note that the total number of open pathways in England increased by 21 per cent over the past 12 months from October, whilst the number in Wales increased by only 10 per cent during that same period.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'd just like to say something also about the HEIW education plan that was published today. It's absolutely right that we need more nurses, and that's why we've put an 8 per cent increase in terms of the money we're putting into training people: £281 million will be invested in training the next generation of NHS workers, and that includes the fact that we will have 400 more nurse training places created in 2023 and 2024. That's an increase, over the past five years or so, of 54 per cent. So, if you look at the detail of what we're doing in terms of training, obviously, it's not something we haven't been doing for years; this is year-on-year-on-year money that we've been putting into the system. We have a 54 per cent increase in the number of people working in the NHS compared to 20 years ago.
This is not something we haven't prepared for; it's just that the demand is increasing hugely, and what we saw was a confluence of COVID, of strep A, of flu all coming together for that difficult period, and we're not out of it. Let's just be clear about this—it's really cold weather, and I'm expecting to see an impact from the cold weather on the services. So, it will continue to be very, very tough. This is something that systems all over the world are confronting. But let's be absolutely clear that 10 years of Tory austerity has not helped, and the fact is that whilst there was an increase in the budget, from about 2010 to 2019, it was about 16 per cent in the UK; it was a 38 per cent increase in Germany. Now, there is a consequence to that; they recognise an ageing population. You know and everybody knows here that what you get additionally in terms of health spending in England, we get a proportionate, equal amount coming into Wales, and that hasn't happened—[Interruption.]—to the extent—. Okay, more, but I wouldn't mind a bit more than you've put in. Try and behave a little bit more like Germany, and we'd be in a lot better place. Diolch yn fawr.

Rhun ap Iorwerth now to reply to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. My biggest fear this afternoon would be that I would hear the Minister saying, 'We're already doing everything that needs to be done to resolve the crisis.' What we heard was the Minister saying that everything is already in train, everything is already being done to resolve this crisis. It clearly isn't, and that runs contrary to all the evidence that we have in front of us. She refused to accept the word 'crisis'—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Will the Member take an intervention?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Yes, certainly.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I say this in all honesty and sincerity, do you not think, after 25 years of a Welsh Labour Government handling the health service here in Wales and, at times, propped up by Plaid Cymru—in fact, you've been in Government yourself here—do you not think that now is the time for a Welsh Conservative Government in Cardiff Bay?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I don't have enough time to describe the damage that I believe would be caused to the national health service if the Conservatives were in charge. I will move swiftly on, and back to the comments that we heard from the health Minister, who again deflected blame, time and time again, and said there had been unprecedented demand. Of course there's unprecedented demand, but that unprecedented demand is a part of what is creating the crisis. It's a failure to deal with that unprecedented demand, and it's those factors that have led to that unprecedented demand and years of mismanagement when it comes to the preventative agenda that we really need to see a gear change on or we'll be back here in 25 years' time again talking about the same issues.
The Minister wanted to blame the co-operation agreement. There's a very good reason why health—. Social care, very much, is in the co-operation agreement. There's a very good reason why health isn't in there, because we disagree with Welsh Government's approach on health, and that's why we cannot agree on a way forward on that. But, the Minister refused to use the word 'crisis', taking a similar attitude to the First Minister from a week ago: 'Sometimes it feels like a crisis', 'There are days when it's bad.' Carolyn Thomas was happy to admit that there is a crisis in Wales, as the rest of the UK, as she said. We heard your Labour leader saying today, Sir Keir Starmer, that there is a health crisis, calling on Rishi Sunak to stop blaming others and take some responsibility and just admit that, under his watch, the NHS is in crisis. Well, under your watch, the NHS is in crisis in Wales, and it worries me greatly that you won't admit to that.
Very important comments from Cefin Campbell, who said that we should never accept the normalisation of the current state of the NHS. That means not accepting that it has to be like this. That means accepting that these are extraordinary times and that, therefore, we need to step up to the plate, accept it for what it is, a crisis. Call it an 'emergency' if you like—in Welsh it's the same word probably. But, we need to have that admission that something different has to happen.
Russell George, like me, didn't underestimate the scale of the challenge. He also made the point that we use words carefully. 'Mismanagement' we use carefully, 'crisis' we use carefully. I will carefully measure my words and ask him to press on his Conservative masters to address the woeful underfunding of public services. I agree with the Labour Minister on that. But, she cannot hide behind that reality, because she has a responsibility to deliver for the NHS in Wales. As Llyr Gruffydd said, she cannot abdicate responsibility.
I'll finish with a quote from the world of business. The first half says,
'Management is about doing things right.'
I've accused Labour again today, as I have many times in the past, of being too managerial in its approach to running the NHS. So, management is about doing things right. Sadly, Welsh Government all too often has not been getting some of the key things right. But, there's a second half to that quote:
'Management is about doing things right; leadership is about doing the right things.'
We need the right things done now more than ever. That's the leadership people want to see from Welsh Government. That means doing things differently, admitting there's a crisis, or this crisis will only deepen.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will, therefore, defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung we will move immediately to voting time.

8. Voting Time

So, we have a single vote this afternoon, on the debate that's just been held, on item 7, which is the Plaid Cymru debate on management of NHS pressures. I therefore call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate—Management of NHS pressures. Motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian: For: 27, Against: 28, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting for today. But, our work continues as we move to the short debate.

9. Short Debate: Developing the hydrogen energy sector in Wales

Today's short debate is to be presented by Janet Finch-Saunders.

If I can ask Members to leave the Chamber quietly, especially those of you who are currently surrounding Janet Finch-Saunders. Any Members wishing to leave the Chamber, do so quietly and quickly, and then Janet Finch-Saunders can start and introduce her debate.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Tonight's debate is 'Developing the hydro energy sector in Wales', and I have agreed to give a minute each to Samuel Kurtz MS, James Evans MS, Huw Irranca-Davies MS, Rhun ap Iorwerth MS and Sam Rowlands MS. So, a popular debate.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Reaching net-zerogreenhouse gas emissions by 2050 is a very significant challenge. It requires urgent action across the economy. The International Energy Agency has said
'an unprecedented clean technology push to 2030'
is required. Hydrogen, we all know, has a very key role to play. As the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee have noted,
'it has unique features as a clean burning fuel that can be stored on long timescales with scalable production through several low-carbon means. This enables hydrogen to play a role not only in decarbonising our energy consumption, but also in providing more resilience for our energy system, and increasing the UK’s energy security.'
There is no doubt that low-carbon hydrogen could be a versatile replacement for high-carbon fuels used today and that Wales is well-placed to be a hydrogen powerhouse. There are so many exciting projects across our country. The south Wales industrial cluster is looking at the production and transport of hydrogen and the capture and use of carbon dioxide on a large scale. RWE is developing a green hydrogen project on their existing Pembroke power station site. It's a brilliant scheme. For example, green hydrogen produced by using electricity from renewables will be used in local industry and as a fuel for future hydrogen-powered HGVs. ERM Dolphyn and Source Energy have announced plans to develop gigawatt-scale green hydrogen floating wind sites in the Celtic sea. HyNet is going to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide emitted from across the region by a quarter through locking away the carbon dioxide emitted by heavy industry and providing locally produced, low-carbon hydrogen to power industry and transport and heat homes and businesses. A Deeside-based hydrogen fuel pioneer has now secured nearly £250,000 of UK Government funding to perfect carbon capture technology that will help lower the environmental impact of its waste-to-hydrogen plants, and we cannot forget that plans for a hydrogen hub on Anglesey have been approved, paving the way for the first development of its kind in Wales. In fact, the UK Government has developed a strategy that sets out how the Conservative Government will drive progress in the 2020s to deliver our 5 GW production ambition by 2030.
However, it has to be said, Members, Llywydd and Minister, that both Scotland and Wales are less ambitious. Scotland’s hydrogen action plan only provides actions to be taken over the next five years, and here in Wales we are reliant on a hydrogen pathway that is only informing activity that will take place in the short term, to 2025. No surprise, then, that the consultation responses published just last June included findings such as multiple respondents noting that they felt that the pathway only covered short-term goals and should be more ambitious. They felt that a long-term strategy is required to enable the roll-out of the hydrogen economy and build a long-term market for low-carbon projects. And several respondents suggested that the pathway even lacked detail and ambition in some areas in which hydrogen is expected to play a key role in the energy system in the long term: decarbonisation of industry, for heating buildings, and as an energy storage solution allowing increased use of intermittent renewables.
Even your own Government states, Minister, in the summary of consultation responses, and I quote,
'the Pathway was to define a set of short-term objectives, focusing on actions and projects that can be implemented in the early part of the 2020s. The document is not (and was not intended to be) a comprehensive strategy for hydrogen in Wales, rather it sought to define a set of no regrets actions to position Wales to take advantage of the range of benefits that increased uptake of hydrogen can bring.'
So, where is that comprehensive longer-term strategy for hydrogen innovation in Wales? Alongside incorporating all the fantastic activities that are already happening, I would specifically be interested to see the strategy include sections that set ambitions for hydrogen in communities, in transport and in planning.
Communities in Scotland and in England are experiencing change. In some instances, only limited changes are needed to gas pipes and homes for hydrogen to be used for heating, hot water and cooking. In fact, using hydrogen in the gas network isn't a totally new concept. Hydrogen used to run through the nation's pipes as part of town gas before the 1960s, and now in England, at Whitby in Ellesmere Port, properties in the confirmed hydrogen village will be provided with a free hydrogen-ready gas boiler upgrade, and hydrogen will be supplied from 2025. Similarly, in Scotland, this year, 300 homes in Buckhaven and Methil will be powered by green hydrogen. But, Minister, I'm a Welsh parliamentary Member. What about our communities here in Wales? We should all here aspire to have a hydrogen neighbourhood trial delivered, and as soon as possible, followed by a large hydrogen village trial and a town pilot by the end of this decade.
In terms of transport, I have referred already to HGVs and I must acknowledge that attracting vehicle integrators to Wales and developing fuel-cell trains is part of your pathway's own recommended actions. However, what is our ambition for private vehicles? As my colleague, James Evans MS, will know better than most, Riversimple is pioneering the next generation of zero-emission vehicles. They use hydrogen, not batteries, and they emit nothing but water. Green Tomato Cars operates a fleet of 50 hydrogen vehicles in London, and DRIVR runs a fleet of 100 hydrogen taxis in Copenhagen. So, I would be delighted to see incentives for hydrogen taxi fleets here in Wales.
We need to be looking at removing barriers to hydrogen cars for private use. In fact, there has even been good news recently, as UK Government funding is now going towards a Toyota project to create a hydrogen fuel cell powered version of its world-famous Hilux pick-up. However, already on the British market are Toyota Mirai and Hyundai Nexo, so we could be supporting our residents to invest in those green modes of transport. In 2021, Norwegian ferry operator, Norled, took delivery of the world's first liquid hydrogen powered ferry, MF Hydra. It has capacity for 300 passengers and 80 cars. Norway has been doing groundbreaking work to demonstrate the viability of hydrogen as a fuel for passenger ships. Wouldn't it be amazing if we had an ambition to work with the Irish Government and the private sector to possibly see hydrogen-powered ships sailing between our ports?
Finally, there is a need to ensure that our planning authorities are properly supported to provide quick approval of hydrogen schemes. For example, I'm aware that responses to your consultation included concerns about the planning regime here in Wales. Some had noted that long-term planning timescales cause major delays to the commissioning of larger scale projects, adding an unnecessary additional risk. Detail as to whether you've explored possible solutions to concerns about planning would be great to hear tonight. At the end of the day, we should remove all possible barriers to hydrogen, especially green hydrogen, from developing to play an even more important role in Wales. At heart, you could do more to help by creating a proper hydrogen strategy for Wales. I do hope in your response, Minister, that you will be very positive on this debate. Other contributions from other Members tonight will prove to you just how important it is that we include hydrogen big style in our drive for renewable, carbon-zero targets. Diolch.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful to the Member for Aberconwy, Janet Finch-Saunders, for giving me a minute of her time. I'm pleased that she mentioned RWE in my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshireand their hydrogen project. I'd be delighted to welcome you down to Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, Janet, and I extend that invitation to the climate change Minister as well, to see the pioneering project at RWE. And there was positivity from the Welsh Government last year in terms of the use of transition hydrogen, in terms of blue hydrogen and green hydrogen—the necessity of both of those as we look to reach net zero—and the increased use of hydrogen in HGV vehicles, as Janet mentioned, taxi fleets et cetera. So, I'd extend the invitation to you both to come down to RWE, in the best constituency in all of Wales, and I know RWE will be delighted to show you what they have on offer, what they're looking to do in the scope of hydrogen production. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank Janet Finch-Saunders for bringing this important debate to the Senedd. The hydrogen sector is hugely important to my constituency, as Janet has mentioned. A few years ago, a company called Riversimple moved to Llandrindod Wells to build a prototype hydrogen car there on the site, aptly called the Rasa. Even His Majesty the King took a spin in a hydrogen car, and he was very, very impressed. Developing the hydrogen sector in Wales is crucial to becoming greener; we need more hydrogen infrastructure right across Wales. I know my colleague Peter Fox, in Monmouthshire Council, used Riversimple to deploy some vehicles there, but it's the only place we have the hydrogen infrastructure in Wales, and, if we are to develop this further, we need to make sure there's more investment into that, so we can expand hydrogen right across Wales. Because batteries are not the future—hydrogen technology is. It's greener and cleaner and a lot more ethical than lithium mining in other parts of the world.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you very much, Janet, for giving me a minute to contribute in a very interesting debate. There are a couple of early-stage proposals within the Bridgend area, actually, for hydrogen projects, green hydrogen projects. And indeed, hydrogen might well have a role to play in our transitioning to a greener economy. But I want to make two points. The first is that we have to make sure that hydrogen does not displace our investment in renewables—that's very important, to make clear that point. But the main point I want to make is this: if we are to develop hydrogen proposals, particularly those that are close to or within communities, then we need to bring those communities along, explain the technology very well, explain the safety aspects very well. Because if there's misinformation, or lack of engagement, then those communities will be understandably worried about what this means for them. So, my appeal within this debate, to anybody who's proposing developing hydrogen projects in or near to communities, is to engage properly with those communities who will be affected to explain the technology and what it may mean for them. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much to Janet Finch-Saunders for presenting this debate. I'm pleased that we are keeping hydrogen on the agenda. It's almost three years, I think, since I led a debate here on hydrogen—I think it was one of the first here in the Senedd; I've presented another one since then. And since then, we've seen the beginnings of a hydrogen industry in Wales. I was very pleased to see the hub in Holyhead being developed. But what's crucially important as we move forward is to identify those sectors where we can make the most use of hydrogen. And I agree entirely that aiming towards using hydrogen on ferries that cross the Irish sea is something that we should be looking at. There is work being done in the fjords in Norway already, where carbon-zero shipping has to be used. Well, let's tie the developments in Holyhead with that ambition for the use of hydrogen on our seas and to produce more green hydrogen in Anglesey, which can possibly be pumped through the old oil pipeline to the industrial areas of north-west England. There are huge opportunities for us.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Janet Finch-Saunders, also for giving me a minute of your time on this really important debate. And I certainly want to echo the comments of colleagues in terms of support for this really important potential and future industry. And of course, within all this, north Wales, in particular north-east Wales, has a great opportunity to see this technology flourish. And at this point, I'd like to put on record the good work highlighted and the good work being carried out by HyNet in north-east Wales, linking to north-west England. HyNet, as I'm sure many of us know, is the UK's leading industrial decarbonisation project, and, from the mid 2020s, in the next few years, it will be producing, storing and distributing low-carbon hydrogen to replace those fossil fuels in such an industrial part of the country. It will also be capturing and locking up carbon dioxide emissions from industry as well. So it's a very, very important piece of work taking place—billions of pounds have been invested into it as well. But, as I mentioned, this really does highlight to me the importance of working collaboratively across the border, and I'd ask the Minister to perhaps comment on that and encourage that continued cross-border collaboration with that HyNet project taking place in north-east Wales into the north-west of England. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change to reply to the debate. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity to respond to this really interesting debate, and thank you, Janet, for bringing it forward. And everybody is absolutely right: the climate emergency demands that we use all the tools at our disposal to accelerate progress to a net-zero energy system. We are absolutely committed to moving our energy system away from fossil fuels and towards renewable energy, as a critical path to achieving our statutory targets and international obligations as a globally responsible nation.
So, alongside extensive renewables developments, hydrogen is likely to have a significant role in Wales's future power, transport and industrial sectors and may also offer an alternative to fossil fuel in our heating systems. Our engagement with industry in Wales, and through our newly established net-zero industry Wales panel, highlights that hydrogen has huge potential to reduce emissions and support the economic transition, especially in energy-intensive industries. For some, hydrogen is seen as key in their road map to net zero. Transport is another potential area of use, particularly for some heavy goods vehicles, rail and potentially aviation, and, indeed, for ferries, as Rhun pointed out. And for the power sector, hydrogen can act as a flexible energy vector to replace the role of gas-fired plant in renewables-based systems.
We're all very aware of the plans from RWE in Pembrokeshireand their ambitions to transition away from gas with hydrogen from renewables, supporting their net-zero ambitions. Wales is extremely well positioned to develop and capture the rapidly emerging economic opportunities offered by hydrogen, particularly when linked to the potential for offshore wind, including the Celtic and Irish seas. However, as I have mentioned before in this Chamber, it is essential that, as we look to decarbonise our sectors, we do not create incentives that lock us into continued dependency on fossil fuels. So, whilst I recognise there is a transition for some sectors in using hydrogen generated from fossil fuels, this must be a rapid transition indeed. We have to move to the exclusive use of green hydrogen as soon as is practically possible, and that is why the development of hydrogen has to be part of a much wider push for greater deployment of renewable energy. The opportunities from renewable energy generation to produce hydrogen when supply exceeds demand must be exploited. So, instead of paying windfarm operators to stop generating, we should pay them to provide a renewable energy source that can be stored and utilised when needed.
We also know there are cost and technical uncertainties in the deployment of hydrogen in the energy system. We are in a cost-of-living crisis, in part driven by high energy costs, so we have to ensure that our approach to decarbonising our energy system is a just one for all consumers, including businesses in Wales. So, that is why supporting innovation in both the private and public sectors is essential to ensure hydrogen and other forms of low-carbon energy contribute to our Net Zero Wales plan and support the economic and social regeneration of our communities.
Through innovation, we can speed up the necessary cost reductions and the deployment of green hydrogen at scale that are very badly needed. The first iteration of our Smart Living hybrid small business research initiative scheme supported 17 hydrogen feasibility and demonstration projects across Wales. The 17 projects in the first year of the scheme are delivering in all regions of Wales, as many Members have highlighted. They range through studies of microgreen hydrogen generation, hydrogen in rural areas, sustainable aviation fuel production, vehicle market development, community-based hydrogen production and a digital one-stop shop hydrogen advice and networking platform.
Our second phase of hybrid will fund a pipeline of business feasibility projects, as well as higher level demonstrator and prototyping work on the ground across the country, and it's our intention to create a pipeline for new Welsh businesses, supporting local ownership and wealth retention across Wales. As we do so, we are committed to working with the UK Government and have already been successful in leveraging in UK funding on the back of our investment. And whilst we very much welcome the funding that is available from the UK Government, if we are to achieve the ambitions for 10 GW by 2030, then more funding is urgently needed. And here I agree with the findings from the Skidmore review that the UK Government needs to confirm long-term funding to support the scaling up of hydrogen production. And I hope, Janet, that you will be making strong representations to colleagues in Westminster, off the back of Chris Skidmore's excellent review, to ensure a greater level of funding is available to support future hydrogen projects across all parts of the UK.
We have supported Welsh stakeholders with their potential bids for UK funding, and we will be learning the lessons from hydrogen heating trials elsewhere in the UK. And in the meantime, we will be assessing the role of hydrogen in heating in our heat strategy, which will be published this year, and as part of our energy-planning work.
So, Dirprwy Lywydd, we are absolutely committed to Wales being at the forefront of the development of this new sector and setting out our strategic approach to make that happen. Our hydrogen pathway sets out 10 objectives, focused on short-term actions, driving demand, production and cross-cutting action to 2025. They also set out avenues to plan for larger scale projects to ensure Wales is well positioned with respect to hydrogen and fuel-cell technologies. As we build on that pathway, we believe this will provide the strategic focus we need to make sure that hydrogen does and will have an important role to play in meeting net zero and make sure that Wales is well placed to be at the absolute forefront of this developing sector. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you to all speakers this afternoon. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:30.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Carolyn Thomas: What consideration did the Minister give to highway maintenance when deciding this year’s local authority settlement?

Rebecca Evans: The Government is providing unhypothecated revenue funding of over £5.5 billion and £180m capital funding in the 2023-24 local government settlement in support of Local Authority services, including highways maintenance.

Paul Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s budget priorities for 2023-24 in Pembrokeshire?

Rebecca Evans: My priorities are set out in our Programme for Government and 2023-24 Draft Budget, which I published on 13 December 2022; a Budget made in hard times, but one that maintains our commitment to prioritise public services and the most vulnerable, whilst continuing to create a stronger, fairer and greener Wales.

Samuel Kurtz: Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's council tax premium policy?

Rebecca Evans: Welsh local authorities have had discretionary powers to apply council tax premiums to long-term empty dwellings and second homes since 2016. From 1 April 2023, the maximum level of premium will increase to 300%. It is for individual authorities to decide whether to apply a premium and at what level.